For years, endurance culture quietly avoided conversations about aging, periods, perimenopause, and menopause. That’s changing, and I’m glad to open this conversation here.
I was lucky to have coach and longtime mountain biking legend Jenny Smith on the pod recently. We talked about what aging actually looks like for female endurance athletes and how to adapt training, expectations, and health strategies with intelligence instead of fear.
Perimenopause can begin in your late 30s or 40s, and fluctuating estrogen levels can affect sleep quality, recovery time, anxiety and mood, inflammation, and body composition. These shifts can feel destabilizing, especially for athletes used to high control and predictable performance patterns.
Why Strength Training Becomes Essential
One of the biggest themes of our conversation was strength training. As estrogen declines, bone density and muscle mass become harder to maintain. Strength work supports:
- Bone health
- Metabolic health
- Injury prevention
- Long-term endurance performance
For many endurance athletes, this means reducing volume slightly to prioritize heavier lifting and more recovery.
Recovery and Smarter Intensity
Another major shift is recovery capacity. Instead of stacking high-volume training, many aging athletes thrive on fewer but higher-quality sessions with more deliberate rest. Listening to your body becomes less about weakness and more about wisdom.
High-achieving women often try to hold every domain, from family, work, and training, to self-care, as equally top priority. That math doesn’t work. Goal setting must reflect your life stage, responsibilities, and energy reservoir by aligning it with reality.
Embracing Agency Instead of Fear
There’s growing research around hormone replacement therapy (HRT), and for some women, it can significantly improve sleep, anxiety, and inflammation. Medical guidance matters, but beyond interventions, there’s something deeper happening here.
Aging brings experience, wisdom, and perspective. Instead of chasing who we were at 28, we can train for who we are now. And that version of you? She’s stronger in different ways.
Listen to Jenny
Jenny’s Links + Similar Episodes
Learn more about Aim High Performance
Authenticity and managing pressure with Sarah Sturm
Aging athletes with Joel Friel
How women should train differently with Dr. Stacy Simms
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Transcript
Sonya Looney 0:01
So Jess, I’m so excited that we get to sit down just the two of us, because in the MAPP program, like we would see each other for little chunks of time, and it was never enough. So welcome to the podcast.
Jessie Reese 0:12
Thank you so much Sonya, for having me on. It’s truly an honor.
Sonya Looney 0:16
I saw recently that so we have this mapp magazine, and you wrote a really awesome article that was about your capstone, which is your project at the end of your master’s degree. And it really intrigued me in many ways, like number one, it called out very specifically, a lot of different issues that many of us are facing with all of these competing demands, but it also offered a solution with this environmental alignment model that we’ll talk about. I was just really impressed with how you pulled together so many different things and created something that was seemingly very actionable. So I can’t wait to dig in. So to start like, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us why you’re interested in this topic.
Jessie Reese 0:59
Well, first off, thank you. That was the goal to make it something material that people could use when they needed it the most. Yeah, so a little bit about myself. I come from a business world and landed in the positive psychology world, not definitely by choice, but also has been kind of the golden thread that kept me going. It feels like, in my own instances of brownout burnout, everything in between. And I, for last 10 years, I’ve become very specialized in the executive development realm, as I do a lot of leadership assessment model development as well as, like very targeted development from, from trying to figure out what people need to do to get from one role to another, or a very targeted succession work, etc. So a lot of that was the context, kind of behind the focus, and one of the things that I reflected on through mapp, but also in particular, through through the process was there was an underlying issue it felt like that I wasn’t really able to ever solve or help someone work through. And I think this whole construct of how do different parts of our lives come together to make us feel whole and in alignment with the things that we care most about, our values, our purpose, etc, but also, how do we figure out how to integrate that into how we develop people today in organizations and make it something that’s little less taboo and something a little more human, if you will, just from from context. I’ve spent 15 years in management consulting, so I’ve done really large scale transformations all the way to really targeted work that I mentioned as well. Before coming to a larger firm, I worked at a boutique strategy firm, and before that, I was in the startup space. So what led me to leadership is they’re the they’re the lifeblood of the organization. If you want to impact change you you have to find your way to them amazing.
Sonya Looney 3:02
So when it came to writing specifically about burnout and brownout, is that the first thing that came to your mind when you thought, I see this like gap across all of these different people that I’ve worked with and a problem that needs to be solved, or did it kind of evolve over time?
Jessie Reese 3:19
I feel like the topic, chose me very different ways. I had a leader, a senior leader, very close to me, that I had watched go from fine to more of a brownout phase and then really getting into more of the burnout. There’s lots of misconceptions on even the terminology that we use use in this space, which was, yeah, yeah. So just for context, like brownout is actually probably what most people experience, and burnout is like you can’t get off, basically out of bed. And watching this individual, I was going through my mapp, my mapp program, and I said, No, no, don’t worry. I will find all the things. I will prioritize them. We will figure out exactly how we can get you situated, if you will. So I went back and I researched, and I looked into things, and I said, Well, there’s not just one thing that’s going to fix this. In fact, there’s actually a lot of different research in different areas. It’s all good, but I was having a hard time figuring out, how can I evaluate what the best intervention or step is for this individual who is who doesn’t need more stuff to do, right? Like this is, this is the moment where people actually need things taken off their plate versus added to it. So I said, Well, let me find a way to evaluate the interventions, like, against all the things, you know, and I found that there was lots of different models and different in different important topics that matter around burnout and burnout, but there wasn’t one really simple one that I could find to evaluate interventions against. So that’s a way to say that this, this topic chose me to that individual. Oh yeah, I actually was able to have them be a beta test for me throughout the process, and it surprisingly worked really well, and identified some of the things that they would have never really gone to if they would have just focused on the work topic, which is really important. I don’t want to under evaluate, undervalue that super important, but it’s also not the whole way that we live our lives and where energy can get out of whack.
Sonya Looney 5:28
So can you describe what the difference is between brownout and burnout?
Jessie Reese 5:34
Absolutely, brownout was a term that I had, again, not, not really understood myself, until really digging into the research. Research brownout is, is often the precursor. It doesn’t always have to be, but often the precursor to a more extreme burnout situation. A lot of the research is early in the brownout phase, but it’s something that I again, like I mentioned, I feel like most of us probably experience more than more than more than burnout, and that’s when you’re feeling a lack of energy, lack of motivation, you’re you’re really trying. You feel different tensions in different areas. You kind of feel, if you think about, you know, I kind of joke about the the model being an inner tube of life is the sinking, you know, a feeling of sinking, and burnout being the tipping point of I am, you know, halfway down on the pool, you know, I can’t get up, and I don’t know what’s up and what’s down.
Sonya Looney 6:29
So, what are some of the contributors to brown out
Jessie Reese 6:34
could be? There’s many, and that’s actually one of the things that that I uncovered, was there’s many different situations that can arise. A few different things that came from the research, outside of just the traditional work, a lot of it is role fit as well, which is the one addition that I made to a really well renowned model around work burnout in particular. Are you happy in your role? Do you Do you see a path forward. Are you fulfilled by your work? But more than that, it’s it oftentimes can be triggered by life events that we have. Becoming a parent, having aging parents, having a health situation go from great to not great over an hour conversation, having a child that needs more attention, or it has has some things that you need to work through, having some mental health situations that you haven’t dealt with come up like one of the interesting things that the research started to really unveil was we often approach this problem in a much more just work focused way, which is still really important, but there’s still aspects of our life that still can contribute to having a lack of alignment. I use the word alignment a lot in both article as well as my capstone, but I think there’s some some some importance of that topic, of when you’re living in alignment with the way you want to live your life, like to your values, if you feel fulfilled and you have energy to do the things you care about, then you kind of feel like you’re floating a little bit more. If you think about life as a little river,
Sonya Looney 8:13
yeah, and like, whenever I think about just the visual of like an inner tube, and then all of these competing demands in our life, they are all interrelated, like you might. You might love your job, but you might still, I don’t know you can tell me, but it seems like you would still, could still experience brownout, because you have one energy reservoir, and you might have not much left for work if there’s all these other things pulling from that reservoir. And you know, for women, like there are so many different competing demands that women have and expectations, and I’d love for you to kind of talk about that, so like a lot of the women listening, can feel seen because that men are doing more than they ever have, and yet there is still this feeling that women are just not able to do it all.
Jessie Reese 9:01
Yeah, the mapp, the mapp article really, really was allowed me the opportunity to focus on women. And the Capstone I was able to just do, do a blur of a shout out to recognize that the stakes are not level when it comes to looking at, you know, like energy, where we spend our where we spend our energy, what energy is even acknowledged in society today, etc. And, yeah, there’s a real, real need when it comes to the amount that women, not just like the amount that women have on their plates, but the, in particular, the unseen amount of work that gets done and not acknowledged. And I think there’s lots of reasons for that that you could probably have a whole podcast to explore, but I think the important aspect is to recognize them, to call them out. And some of these things are like doing the planning for a family. Let’s say, you know, that takes a lot of effort, and it’s something that often. Often women are the ones who bear that as well as caregiving. If there is any of those transition moments that I mentioned before, we often, research shows that women are often the ones who lean into those. And I’m not saying that women don’t want to lean into those, but it’s still it’s a huge amount of work already placed upon if you think about, if we bring the inner tube analogy kind of to life, if you think about your there’s no, there’s no woman running around with a free time usually, you know, hey, let me, I could use some more. I could use some more hobbies. You know, that’s not usually, not, not usually the situation. What we usually find is people are already so tapped. And then when you have a life transition, or something shifts, you know, because that’s life, that’s the dynamic, then things start to get out of whack, because we don’t really adjust the other things that we have responsibilities, the components that are weighing us down. And if we don’t start bringing awareness understanding, both in a literal and also maybe even more philosophical way, then we don’t really know what is the things that like just consistently make our shoulders come up, but, you know, weigh on us.
Sonya Looney 11:15
I mean in terms of expectations, you know, there’s like, if you go through a transition, you were just talking about you, it sounds like you’re saying, well, we don’t even shift our expectations or our process to accommodate that transition. So what are some things people can do to manage their expectations and their process in their home life, in their their personal life, in their work life, so that they can accurately manage some of these drains on their energy?
Jessie Reese 11:43
Yeah, this was, this was the question that through writing the article, I wish I would have been had the article to read for myself about two years ago, when I was going through this moment myself. And I think a few things, one, a realistic view of all the things that you are doing, especially the things that we don’t normally attribute, like, you know, scheduling for stuff to be done in your house, laundry, like the you know, even the little things of packing lunches or taking parents to the doctor, you know, or additional, additional things that still are on your to do List and still super important for you to do, but you don’t really account for them in your day, when you look at and even when you look at and you check off your lists at the end of the day, did you even think about all the extra ways that your energy was spent? And I’m not saying, you know, you have to be a, be an FBI agent and doing it, but really being thoughtful and saying, What are where, where did all the things that I do, where did they all go, and how did they account for energy being spent in variety of different places? And because I think that’s where you get really the insight into the leakage. So I’d say a real assessment to what’s on your plate, and then looking at the areas that’s that’s one of the reasons why I developed the model was there’s areas that you feel alignment with yourself, so that gives often gives you energy. Let’s say you have an incredible work community that breathes life into you every day, or you have an incredible spiritual community that you’re able to see, or you’re able to have your family at the end of the day, whatever that is, what are some of the things that give you, give you life and get and give you energy, as well as what are some of the things that are out of whack or out of alignment, if you will? And if you look at the model visually, those are the things that kind of push out a way. If you think about your center being your your values and your core, like the things, then the things that kind of can get off kilter are the things that can get out. So when you look at things in that way and actually objectively evaluate your life, it you, you, you get insight, and you also get a sense of power to say, what are the choices that I want to make next in order to honor the new, the new the new priorities that I have, the new care, new set of values I have. You know, health was low on my list, and now it’s my number one. Like, you know, like, so whatever, whatever shift you have, you’re able to look at it in a much more objective way. I think the thing that, the that I’ve seen, the model start to do, it’s an early beta testing, is give language to things that we don’t normally like to talk we don’t normally often talk about with either a life coach, regular coach, or even just with your friends, of saying, Wow, I I’m really have a have a strong need for for finding fulfillment in Different areas that I care about, and I didn’t realize how important that was until I was able to look at why things feel off.
Sonya Looney 14:49
Yeah, when I saw your model, I got really excited, because my coaching training was through Vanderbilt’s integrative medicine program, and they have this wheel of health, and it has like. Doesn’t have the work things as much, but it has a lot of these core elements that lead to our well being. But whenever I think about this, there are people who try to make everything a priority, like, they’ll look at this, this my environmental model. They’re like, well, well, yeah, like, my work is important. You know, my work community, the role fit, I care about all the self things, like my routines and habits, my physical health and my emotional health and my self awareness, and, of course, my at my home, like my physical environment is, and my caregiving, like all these things are the most important. So I think, like, it’s nice to see it, but how in practice, do you recommend people choose their priority? Because, like, this is something that I encounter in my coaching practice as well, is that these, it’s usually high achieving people that I work with, is they want everything to be the priority, and they have a very hard time not making everything the priority. But because of that, that’s what’s creating the issue of brownout and or burnout.
Jessie Reese 16:00
Yeah, it’s a great point and great question. I used to tell leaders they could do three to five things really well, like, five, you’re already pushing it. And it for high achieving individuals, that already gets them, like, what I can do more? You know? Yeah, they
Sonya Looney 16:16
think, well, that’s not for me. That’s just for like,
Jessie Reese 16:18
average, for other that’s for other people who can’t figure out that was, that was similar. I think if there was one thing that I a lesson that I wish I would have learned a lot earlier in my life, that was, you cannot delegate optimize or efficient efficiency eyes your way out of something like, you know, like, when you, when you don’t have a clear set of the most important things, like, there’s nothing, there’s no way that it can, it can magically become in sync, you know, if you will, I would say that the three to five rule is, is, I imagine there’s a ton of research in between the right number. So I want to caveat that I’m not putting that out there, but I do think that the purpose of the model and the purpose of the exercise is to identify this is the view. It’s important not to focus on one dimension other than the other, but it is when you’re evaluating but when you think about what you act on, I think, having a very clear set of one to five items and really thinking about, what’s the most impactful thing that can relieve some pressure, if you are truly going through a burnout or even a brownout situation, what’s the one thing that can relieve pressure? And I’m going to pause
Sonya Looney 17:38
for a second, yeah, I want to repeat that for people, because I think that is such a fabulous question, what is the most impactful thing you can do to relieve pressure? And for people to, like, write that down, because I don’t think many people even reflect on that question.
Jessie Reese 17:52
Yeah, it’s it’s a really, really important one. I think that was posed in the article as well as, like, what can I do to relieve pressure? And it’s not a new priority. It’s not a net new I mean, maybe it could be, but it’s usually something that you’ve had in your life at some time, oftentimes, that you can pull on for an area of of help or strength. And as an example, somebody who has an unmanageable workload, as well as an unmanageable at work, as well as at home. Can they get in some more support in one area for somebody who has suffering your mental and physical health? Which area you know, again, not in adding net new work to these people? Which area can we think about making a step in the right direction to help with some of the other dimensions that feel out of whack. So I’d say it’s really focusing and summarizing like it’s really focusing on what are the top areas that aren’t just you know, I want to figure out my life’s purpose, which is an important thing. But if you’re in the burnout, in a brownout phase, you need to focus on relief of pressure, areas that you can leverage of strength, areas that are working well in your life, as well as ways that you can get help. You know within that which is not something that a lot of high performing leaders or individuals are naturally good at. So that’s where I think having having a support Sonya, like a coach to help guide them through or even really objectively, think about using it. You could circle it. What are the areas that I have to do like that? Have to be me, and what are some areas that I’m going to put my ego to a side here and say, Where can I get some support?
Sonya Looney 19:36
This asking for help piece has become a huge interest area for me in my work, because my work is in mattering. And mattering is about adding value and feeling valued. But in order to feel valued, one of the ways you feel valued is when people are helping you, when you see that you are worth your people are investing in you. People see you and hear you. But I think that. Are issues in our culture, both personally, you know, with our own expectations, which is why I was asking about that earlier, and also systemically, you know, number and I’ll talk for like, maybe a minute, and then I’ll stop talking. Number one, you know, there’s, there’s like, imposter phenomena. Like, one of the types of imposter phenomena is the superhero, the Superman, or the super woman who feels like they have to do it all and that they can’t ask for help, and if they got help, then what they did doesn’t count. There’s also the people that will they don’t feel like they’re worthy of asking for help, or they think just because they can muscle through and do it all, that means that they should. There are negative emotions and guilt that have been conditioned into asking for help. I mean, I think about this in parenting and the parenting community all the time, like people never ask for help. I’m so happy when my friends ask me if they can, like, drop their kids off, because it is so brave, it requires humility and vulnerability to ask for help. So whenever I think about that and framing it in terms of what you’re talking about, relieving pressure. A lot of times, we’re in our own way, and we won’t allow ourselves to ask for help. How does that? How does that, like show up for you and in your work?
Jessie Reese 21:18
I love that. Um, I feel like I live, I chose to live on a hamster wheel of, I can do it and I will die on the sword like, you know, for it for so long. And the main cost, I mean, there was, there’s lots of costs to that, and it takes someone really brave to be able to go through and to deal with that for the why, but also, if I look at the systemic issue of brownout and burnout, my my my very probably overly optimistic view is like, I hope we can, together, start changing our norms and Our definitions and the way that we even think about this topic of like having help be such perceived as such a negative thing, versus a way that we can all help to overuse it, to help change the narrative, also of the of the over busyness, of the cycle, and not to say that It’s not a real thing that we all feel. But if we call on a community, you know, which, which is the way that we do it, way back when, you know, for not everyone has to do all the things, has to be proficient in all the things. In fact, it works best when people are able to focus on the few things that they’re really good at and rely on others in other areas. But that takes, that takes an environment, a context that allows for that, that takes personal skills to be able to accept that. And it takes, you know, some kind of humble acknowledgement that you know, sometimes life, all the things in order to do all the things, it requires giving up some other things, and what do I want to give up to be able to spend or the perception of giving up, I would really, you know, for someone who went from a really intense, very intense job to really trying how to rewire a lot of behaviors to just focus on presence of like, just because that was, that was my biggest challenge of figuring out how I could just be sitting at my kids swim lesson and just focusing there without feeling guilty about not checking my email, not responding to the 345, to six text messages, not finishing my grocery list, finishing my grocery order. You know, you name it. That was like just you just sit here. That’s that what, what a privilege, right, but at the same time, what an important skill that, frankly, I really want to pass on to my kids.
Sonya Looney 23:52
Yeah, like you talk about the, like, emotional and mental capacities, and I think this, like, non duality piece is so important that you can sit there your kids swim lesson, you can simultaneously feel like, a little bit stressed, a little bit guilty, a little bit weird, like, I should be doing something. Look at all the other moms. They’re there. Look there. Look how productive they are. And then they miss their kid looking over to be like, see mom, like, look what I did. It’s both. It’s both feeling that that kind of like itchy feeling, and being like, this is my to use your you said use the word alignment a lot like, I am aligned with what’s most important with me in this moment. But that takes so much discipline in order to do that, and so much awareness of what what’s important in that moment.
Jessie Reese 24:35
Yeah, what’s important. And I’d say that’s like, part of the check in too, that I don’t know if people would use the model for but something that I’ve started doing is going back and saying, what are the areas looking at it? Because it having a very simple way to evaluate the different components of your life, you know, of saying, what’s working, what’s not like, you know, you don’t even have to use it. It was definitely designed to be. Burnout brown out. Like, how do I, how do I get out and do it in a very focused way? But it also could be a general check in I did the other day. I’ve been like, Okay, what’s working? What are some areas that I need to breathe life into, and what are some areas that are in a really solid place? Yeah, to your to your point, it takes it. We’re all on this consistent, you know, journey of growth and finding the types of ways and tools to simply and effectively do that, to be able to to do it with intention, I think is a little bit of the sweet spot.
Sonya Looney 25:32
Yeah, I’m also thinking, as we talk like there’s a couple things. So number one, I don’t know, are you familiar with Jed Brewer’s work, like he’s he’s his recent book. Well, there’s one called the hunger habit, but one my favorite book that he’s written is called unwinding anxiety. And he has another one called the craving mind. And he uses curiosity and awareness to help us break habit loops. So when it comes to anxiety, worrying is the habit loop of anxiety, and he helps people come into this embodied awareness of how things actually feel, and to use curiosity to build this disenchantment Data Bank, to realize what you’re doing, that habit you’re doing actually isn’t as rewarding as you think. So that you can find this bigger, better offer of curiosity to just be with the things so as you’re taught, like, as you’re talking, I have these, like, I’ve been going through this program that he has, and one of the behaviors that I want to change is this, like, incessant need to be productive, because that is something that creates pressure and and brown out for me, and in some cases, burnout. And that comes from, like, a self worth that feels like, well, if I’m not achieving things quickly, or if I’m not, like, doing these things, like number one, someone’s going to get there before me, or, like, I’m not allowed to just sit down and relax. Like I’m not allowed to do that. There’s like, these rules that we put for ourselves. So when we think about, you know, what am I getting from this? Like, what am I getting from trying to hold every single piece of this, this, this model up as number one at the same time, like, the answer is a disenchanting answer. Yeah. Like, what do you think whenever you hear that
Jessie Reese 27:16
I love that I feel like, I feel like doing that work is such important and life transforming work, I’m doing a very similar thing, and I like, I’m embracing my discovery phase, like I’ve named it. You have to name it just like you have, like you have to, you have to daily. And then I kind of look at that as behavior rewiring to your point and love, love us. Love, love the work as well. But it takes. It takes going against all the things that we have we have learned, as well as the pressure that exists in today’s in today’s world that has such a desire for fast movement, immediate dopamine hits, you know, like, which is a check the check the box, or a quick, you know, whatever kind of habit it is, like, if you really start to unpack some of those, you’re able to really understand and learn, what are some of the things that make me feel fulfilled? And do I do I actually feel fulfilled by them, or is it that I felt like I felt like I I was able to get through the things that I had identified or that other people thought that I needed to have on my to do list? I think one of the things that through my own practice, that I started identifying, is I have my gratitude general, my gratitude journal, and then I have a notebook, and my people in my old life would be like, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe she’s writing things down. Like that was a behavior change for me, like, basic that. And what I was identifying, though, is what I wrote in my gratitude journal on what would make today great did not make it in to my daily plan. And I was like, well, that’s messed up. Like, if my daily plan is to be is the most important thing for me today is to be present and there for my kids, like you know, and enjoy my time with them. I have to set my day up differently actually, like my day is actually designed to get done the things that you know, and some of them are important. I’m not saying don’t pay your bills, don’t come, you know, show up to work like etc, but there also is it puts you in such a more place of awareness and also place of power to say, How can I design my day with the with the routines and the habits that work for me versus against me? And sometimes there’s much more that we can do in that space that we don’t often realize or feel.
Sonya Looney 29:47
Something else that I found helpful is just like this normalization of kind of what is happening for real. Because I think when we’re online or we’re thinking about what other people are doing, we think that everybody. Is doing everything all the time, and I’m coming back to women, because this is just for some reason, this is just really, like sticking with me here. Sometimes I wonder, like, How are all of these women, like working all these hours and somehow still being present for their family, and somehow still like exercising and taking care of themselves and going out on dates with their partner. Like, how are they doing all these things? Because I just don’t get it. Because I, like, I have my kids are at school from nine to three. Like, that’s all I get. I get nine to three to work and to get all my any, any me time, anything has to jam pack into those hours. And then I start looking around, and then I realize, like, at school pickup, it’s like, well, this is the case for many other families. Like many other people are kind of on the same schedule that I am, so actually they’re not doing what I think that they’re doing. And I think a lot of times we’ll look at what other people are doing and we’ll assign this like best case scenario that we think would be the best possible thing, but it’s not reality. And so we set our expectations and what we put as a priority based on what we think other people are doing, instead of what’s actually happening. So talking about that, like, for me, like coming to the realization of I have these very high expectations of what I think should be happening, but in all reality, like, I’m probably working part time, and it hurts my ego to say that it is, like, I get a lot done, that those hours, like, it’s amazing, but in all reality, like, are those expectations in line with reality? Whenever I look at my own priorities on that mapp that you have, and it was, like, so helpful, whenever you just look at it that way, trying to be objective and realistic,
Jessie Reese 31:37
yeah, it’s you brought up a really good point on, like, this whole concept of having it all, which I definitely see impacting women in a whole different sphere. I think everyone, it’s societal, et cetera. But I think one of the things when I was writing the article that I looked into, I was
Speaker 1 31:59
like, what is all? Like, what, who, we don’t really even
Jessie Reese 32:04
define it actually, like, we have this well, like, well, you can have it all. And I’m sure you were told that in your career also, like, you could do it just get more help. Like, just outsource it. Like, you know, like you can have it all. And I was like, what is all to you, you know, like all to you is different than all to me, like it’s, it’s in, in the beholder and and that’s where, and that’s why, when you do feel like you are doing it all, it doesn’t feel great, because it’s like you’re doing it for other people’s or your perception of other people’s definition of it all. So I think even unpacking, you know what that means to you in that way, is helpful. And then to your point on, like this, this, I similar, have played with my work hours countless times over my career, and there is, like, something really locked in there, around that, and I’d say, like, whatever, whenever I find one of those things, I’m really forcing myself to try to sit with it, to be like, All right, where is that a story I’m telling myself? Is that something that is culturally really deep in there, or is that something I actually really want to continue to to breathe into as something important to me in the future, but you have to have the energy to do that work. Also, like, that’s one of the, I think, the prime thing, one of the prime elements, and hopefully a gold thread that’s clear through both the article, but also through the Capstone work. Was if you don’t have energy to spend it in the places that matter most to you. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s a terrible feeling, personally, you know, emotionally fulfilling. But it’s, it’s also like, why are we on, why are we doing, you know, every day, to do all the things, like, if it’s at what cost?
Sonya Looney 33:57
So whenever, like, your your work was on executives, and like, executives have many, many different things that they need to be doing and a lot of pressure, because they’re the leaders of the organizations. So whenever you pile that on top of everything that we talked about, like, how can executives manage all these pressures? Or, like, they might not be able to say, well, I’m going to work from nine to three. Like, what are they supposed to do? Like, what’s your recommendation based on the research you just did?
Jessie Reese 34:27
Yeah, and I chose executives, because there’s no one who has least less time. And and also, if, if, if there is a model is going to work for one population, it should be for one population that has the least amount of time, because I think that the trickle down effect is big. And I’d say there’s, there’s never just one thing usually, or one solution in here. And that’s actually what I like about the model. Some there are some real realities of people’s role. You have to be physically in the office. You have to have these you have to be available during these certain hours you have you have real constraints of life you know that are important as inputs. And some of those constraints you need to recognize as you know, ones you want to accept, and also ones that no longer fit a need. I think that there’s for women, I’ll speak to women, but also in people overall, I feel like we unless you take a moment and stop and evaluate what constraints are no longer serving you, or what things are working against your goals, then you just continue sinking like there is going to be an, you know, a moment where you’re just like, I can’t, I can’t meet my needs of taking my parents, you know, to these appointments and be available within those hours. I need to bring it up and ask. I think that goes back to the Ask for help kind of component. And some of it’s temporary, some of it’s long term. So then you can evaluate, you know, am I in the right role? Am I in the right moment, you know, for my life, I think that the concept of what worked before, when I was in my 20s and had, you know, like much easier, was able to to throw myself at my job, you know, consistently won’t work at this part of my career, or This part of my life, or my values have changed. I think that putting people in a place of power to be able to evaluate those things is step one, and then step two is figuring out what, what things could give and how you could maybe evaluate asking for for short or longer term, you know, movement of things. Does that answer your question?
Sonya Looney 36:43
Yeah, it does. It does it made me think of something because, like, I, you know, as a coach, you help people set goals, and I do these, like, I’ve done some, like, corporate goal setting workshops, and I’ve noticed that a lot of people will set their goal based on the best that they’ve ever been, even though their life is completely different, so their ability to commit to that goal is not what it used to be. So whenever you set your benchmark based on the best you’ve ever been, but your conditions are different. Your conditions to work towards that goal are different. You’re setting yourself up for failure and for dissatisfaction. So I was just thinking about that when you were talking. I love that. And I think it brings up something so important in that
Jessie Reese 37:26
we look at our life, we oftentimes, and the research definitely showed this too, of this, this, this, you know, this airplane taking off, you know, like, like, but reality is airplanes once, once they’re up, they go up and down based on, you know, altitude restrictions, you know, weather bombs. They go around. Sometimes you have to land unexpectedly like but we have the expect. Oftentimes, many of us adopt this expectation that it is just up and up and up from there. And if you’re not building, if you’re not compounding, if you’re not improving, then you’re going backwards. And I think that goes back to the definition of success that we all need to, you know, sit with, and that is, there’s going to be different parts of our lives, and evaluating those in the same way that we’ve, many of us have been trained to do from a work from a works component. It’s actually why I feel like the other two components of the model are just as if not more important. Are everything is important. It’s all based on individual context. But you’re looking at your work, your your work, in addition to your home life, everything outside of work, basically as well as your you know, your own self, your mental health, physical you know, in alignment with your values, everything that’s really, really important. If we don’t evaluate the different levels of success like and not just look at it from a work area, we’re missing something, you know, a little bit and and it will, it will eventually come back in ways, and hopefully it doesn’t come back in ways that are ways that we would rather not deal with it, like regret or like missing out. You know, I did get a little into the research around what do people wish they would have done differently at the end of their lives? I know there’s been other “mappsters” who’ve done a lot of really great work on this, and it’s not I wish I would have spent more time at the office, like everyone you know, but I feel like little mechanisms like this that allow us to check ourselves, to get out of the moments of burnout and burnout, but also look at based on the phase in of my life, how am I do I like the way I’m living it, you know, for lack of better words, yeah.
Sonya Looney 39:39
And I think kind of another thing to bring up from something we were talking about earlier is like, what is having it all? And I think what people are kind of seeking is a feeling. They think, if I have it all, I will feel a certain way. But actually, a lot of us actually have that feeling within us already. It’s just that we don’t even notice it, because we’re in such a hurry, grasping and reaching for that next foothold that we don’t pause to realize that a lot of times what we what we’re seeking, we already have, like, it’s already there.
Jessie Reese 40:12
I love that. I think there’s a lot of power, a power in in that, as well as like, you have to have, you have you have to have the space to be able to sit and say, Wow, I’m if I just stop for a second and I look at my life like, I have, I have the things that I wanted. But if you can’t do that, like, if you have so many things on your plate, it’s often impossible. There’s not the and then one of the things that the reason, one of the main reasons why I went into this, is we can’t just have another Resilience Program. You can’t just do another mindfulness program like you, if you, if you’re constantly chasing the skill like you’re not, you’re not work doing the work that you need to. I think, just to your point, you have to have the space in your life to be able to actually sit in it and be present in it, which is not, I realize, is a luxury, but it’s also stripping away some of the things that we feel like are important, and they may be important, but they may not necessarily be the most important, because everything has an opportunity cost
Sonya Looney 41:21
to it, yeah, like, whenever we’re chasing another thing to try to fix the problem, it’s, it can be its own form of avoidance. I’ve noticed that in myself it’s like, oh, like, if I could just get one more certification, or learn one more thing, or read one more research paper. Like, it’s actually a form of avoidance, of just pausing. And so that’s been a very helpful insight for myself that I just thought of when you were saying that
Jessie Reese 41:48
that’s, that’s very insightful, I think, understanding why there’s also the mechanics of just, oh, must keep like, there’s, there’s the slow way when you actually get to where you’re slow, forced to slow down. And there is no like, yeah, you could do a retreat, whatever, but then you get put the person right back in their context, and you know, then you’re back at it with your 72 list, you know, items on your to do list. It does take real, real work, some some support from programs. But also, just like wanting to define what that looks like for you, you know. And sometimes it helps to have a guide to help through that. Sometimes it also helps to play it forward a little bit. If I was walking around in my life a few years, like, what do I want it to look like? What do I want to feel like? What do I want to see myself doing, you know, in it a little bit that kind of it feels silly sometimes to do that, but I think that gets to the things that we often don’t have names for in the choices and how we actually want to conduct ourselves, like through throughout the day. I think we have very corporate names, like you were collaborative, or you were innovative, or, you know, those things, but I don’t think we have names or awareness to say, How am I conducting myself in my day, and do I like that? You know, is that? Is that the direction I want to keep going, or do I want to course correct?
Sonya Looney 43:14
You’re also saying earlier how, like we need to have the space to reflect. But I do think that everybody has that space to reflect, like, not everybody has time to, like, sit there with their journal and do all those things. I wish. I wish that I made more time for that, taking responsibility, but also wishing I had more time. But like, you can reflect any moment, like you can be like people listening to this are reflecting right now on the questions that we’re asking. So even if you’re tired, like you still have or like, even I would, I would argue, in a brownout phase, like there’s still the option to reflect. But maybe the energy piece is hard, because it’s hard to actually take action on the thing that you recognize.
Jessie Reese 43:54
It’s tough when you’re going through burnout or brownout. You know the when you feel like you’re in the downward of the spiral, and having someone say, like, what do you want the future? You know, if you were to look like you’re like, I just want to get out of this moment like you. That’s kind of where a different set of questioning needs to, needs to look at. But to your point, like there is the feeling, and sometimes things have to get super hard and terrible before we actually do things about them. I at one version, had called, had called the called the Capstone, a burnout, or ran out with a gift, you know, like the unanticipated, unwanted gift. And that was like, poo pooed for many reasons, but I think the concept was like, we don’t have, and it’s all how we decide to look at it. When you’re in it, it’s it sucks. There’s no other better word, you know, or better way to think about it. But if you think about how you want, what you want to do with that, it can be such a powerful gift for myself. I was, I was on a very rough downward spiral. Role of becoming the parent that I did not want to embody, becoming the partner that was never present, like physically, mentally. And I look at my had a very my my five year old son at the time, like asked me to stop traveling for my job. And it like was literally had it smacked me right in the face. Was just like, I, who am I living this life for? This is not working? And found myself in my bed like bawling about, like, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, I don’t know who I’m supposed to be, but all I know is I just feel like I’m just sucking at it, you know? And I was, and I could have looked at that moment and said, Wow, I want a wall. And I did. I wanted to just second to let it out, which is good, let all emotions out. But then I was like, What am I going to do with this? This is I can’t turn back, like, you know, because I know what that where that’s going to go. So I looked at what other options I needed. That is actually how I came to mapp. I opened up. I don’t know if you’re a Ben neptin fan, but he has this, this book called The bucket list, and I opened it up. So I was like, if I just go on the corporate ladder, I’m going to keep there. I’m not going to work on the behaviors that I need to change. And also, those are the same behaviors that I’ve I’m not able to help other people work through them because I’m not good at them. And that was that was a problem. And then when I opened up his journal, he looked at things many different dimensions that are very complementary to what are in the model that look at things like your relationships, your education, which is how I ended up with mapp like in other ways. So I think if we look at these, we all are given gifts in life, however we want to receive them, but sometimes some of the crappiest moments can be some of the biggest life gifts that we we ever get.
Sonya Looney 46:52
Yeah, and I also want to add a caveat to something I said earlier, like, if you’re depressed or you are deep into burnout. Sometimes asking these self reflective questions do not help you, because you don’t have an answer for it, and like, your perspective is just not there. So I just want to add the caveat to what I said. I just, I think it’s important to add that nuance and also like, thanks for sharing that story like that. That’s a I think a lot of people have had some form of that in their lives, of like, what is this all for? And like, I’m my kids are telling me, like, hey, like you’re not, you’re not being present or your partner, and that is a very hard wake up call. So kudos to you. It takes a lot of courage to go there and to take action from that.
Jessie Reese 47:37
Thank you. Thank you. And fully agree, yeah, if there, if you are in a situation where you need support and help, like, yeah, you there. And there are definitely moments in everyone’s life where, whatever form that is, this is the the model is designed very much for someone who is able to still be able to with support from a coach or anybody like be able to look forward. But if forward isn’t really an option, then you need somebody to help you, for sure.
Sonya Looney 48:10
Well, I can’t believe our time is already up. Like this has been really inspiring for me, just reminders of things for myself. And I loved getting to read your work, and I’m so excited to see where it goes. I mean, this is just the beginning, and it is so needed. So congratulations. And yeah, like, I’m sure all of us, myself and the listeners and our mapp community are just thrilled to see what happens next.
Jessie Reese 48:37
Thank you means a lot to me. Sonya and and you are equally an inspiration to me. Thanks. Th