I’ve known Travis Macy for a long time now. We came together through podcasting, and over the years, we’ve had so many conversations: me on his podcast, him on mine. We’re good friends, and in a lot of ways, we’ve lived these almost parallel lives.
We’ve both been professional athletes, parents, podcasters, keynote speakers, and authors. And we are both people who have had to ask: who am I when my identity is no longer only tied to performance?
This episode is about adult development. And sometimes, life gives us experiences that force us to become more nuanced, more honest, and more human.
Travis shares very openly about his father’s eight-year journey with Alzheimer’s and his recent passing. We talk about grief, but also appreciation and gratitude. We talk about the complexity of loving someone through decline and the way loss can break something open in us and also deepen our understanding of what matters.
Beyond Performance-Based Identity
For athletes and high achievers, identity can become very tied to what we do, how we perform, what we accomplish, and how other people see us. But what happens when that changes?
What happens when sponsorships end, when parenting changes your priorities, when your body or life asks something different of you, or when the old markers of success no longer feel like enough? Travis and I talk about moving toward a more flexible identity. One that can include performance, but is not dependent on it.
We also talk about mattering, which is the experience of feeling valued and knowing that we add value. So many of us spend years trying to be liked, chosen, validated, or recognized. But mattering asks a deeper question: do I feel seen? Do I feel valued? Do I know that my presence and contributions make a difference? That shift from approval-seeking to mattering changes how we relate to ourselves and to other people.
Who Are You Becoming?
This conversation is for anyone in transition. Anyone grieving or outgrowing an old identity. Maybe you are wondering what success means now, or learning how to communicate more honestly, trust yourself more deeply, and build relationships where they can actually be seen.
Adult development is not always comfortable, but it can help us become more integrated, more compassionate, more connected, and more fully ourselves.
LINKS
Learn more about Jen Fisher
Read Jen Fisher’s new book Hope is the Strategy
Finding Meaning and Mattering at Work with Andrew Soren
Finding Meaningful Work with Wes Adams and Tamara Myles
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:
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Transcript
Sonya Looney (00:12)
Well, this is really fun to Travis to be back together podcasting like the good old days.
Travis Macy (00:18)
Absolutely, Sonia. I am glad to be here today with you and with the audience. thank you for the invite.
Sonya Looney (00:25)
Yeah, so for those of you who aren’t familiar with Travis, like Travis and I have had many podcast conversations, me on his podcast, him on mine. ⁓ we’re really good friends. ⁓ we kind of came together through podcasting actually, but we have led very like almost like parallel lives in a lot of different ways as like professional athletes and becoming parents and being podcasters and you know, keynote speakers and authors, like just very similar things.
Travis Macy (00:51)
Yeah. Abs absolutely. you’ve been a great ⁓ you know, friend, colleague, teammate, et cetera.
Sonya Looney (00:52)
Yes.
Yeah, and like it’s it’s I feel lucky to have, you know, you as a friend in my life and that we’ve been able to kind of like learn and grow together. So ⁓ I’m excited because today’s not really it’s gonna be different. Today’s not really an interview, like other episodes. This is like Travis and I are both gonna be talking about our own lives together. And the theme that I came up with was ⁓ just a conversation about adult development. And we talk about personal development, but like we don’t often talk about the stages of adult development.
Travis Macy (01:25)
Sounds good. ⁓ definitely of interest to me and and you know, something I think about often with myself, with my clients. ⁓ my dad passed away just over a month ago and and that’s a you know, a developmental phase. You know, I’m finding ⁓ lots of friends are losing parents ⁓ at at this time. And that’s a big time developmental ⁓ milestone.
Sonya Looney (01:46)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it was interesting. ⁓ I’m already off topic and it’s just gonna that’s just how it’s gonna be. But the other day I went to this ⁓ a breath like a I’ve been doing a lot of ⁓ breath work that’s more like in the shamanic side of things, not just like pranayama, but just like where you have I experience, you know, a lot of extreme emotions and vision and imagery and sort of like life changing experiences. And the facilitator, it was just a few days ago, she said something like
Travis Macy(02:04)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (02:20)
Wow, like you have so much grief to me, which was surprising to like she labeled my pain as grief. ⁓ and then she she also said that she gets messages, ⁓ you know, from I don’t know spirits or I I don’t really know. She just said she gets messages. And so she said she had a message for me and that there’s so much power when you go through the pain. And so my friends and I were talking about that today. We were talking specifically about grief and how ⁓ there’s a power whenever you are brave enough.
Travis Macy(02:23)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (02:49)
to to face your grief, whatever that may be, someone dying or just a grief of a way your life was supposed to be or whatever.
Travis Macy (02:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. There’s there’s a there’s a power, there’s a release. and and there’s one thing I’ve learned, ⁓ you know, my dad had an eight year journey with with Alzheimer’s, so it was, you know, a lot of grief over a long period of time. And I really had to learn how to grieve. And it really helped me to begin understanding grief as appreciation. And it’s not just this
sad or bad thing, but also feeling and allowing those things is a way to to show ⁓ that we care. And and that’s it just really helped me rearrange. Like this isn’t a something bad I need to run from. ⁓ but it’s something that’s ⁓ that’s okay and and natural. And and I think you’re right. It’s it’s been, you know, in in this last month of
You know, a death after cognitive decline is is is definitely different in some ways, but it really it was freedom for my dad, freedom for my mom, freedom for me and my family and my siblings. And there’s been a lot of power in that for sure.
Sonya Looney (04:00)
Yeah, I remember Travis, we talked it it it hadn’t been very long after your dad passed away, and we were just talking about the experience, and you were talking so much about appreciation and gratitude. ⁓ and many people talk about the pain and the sadness and the loss, which is all part of it. But I just was so ⁓ struck by how much you were talking about appreciation and gratitude. Like how how do you get to that point?
Travis Macy (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
man, that’s a good qu I I again, I think it’s I haven’t lost a a some a close family member with an abrupt death. So I I’m guessing that process is much different. But, you know, when we had this ⁓ again, years and years of many, many small and very hard deaths of sorts along the way. Whereas at at the end, you know, a final transition, I mean, in in some ways it was
you know, a blessing and an answer to prayers, as it were. And and I think y you know, my dad couldn’t articulate things or you know, very little over even the last couple of years. But I I think that sense was probably even there for for him. And and I would I would guess probably a lot of people can relate to that after, you know, a journey like Alzheimer’s or maybe some other type of ⁓ you know, challenging medical issue or just even
Even the end of a of a long life well lived. Yeah, you know, like the the time was was right. And in and the the death itself, we had like ten wonderful days together after dad stopped eating and drinking and he couldn’t communicate or anything, but he was very much there physically and and spiritually and and it was it was a wonderful time together. In addition to being very, very hard and sad, lots of lots of tears, but also lots of laughs and ⁓ and everything.
Sonya Looney (05:45)
Yeah, I can see you smiling, and just so many different things can coexist at the same time. And that’s such an important reminder. Yeah.
Travis Macy (05:51)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That that learning, you know, in terms of adult development, and maybe we get to the topics you have, you know, ideas about, but but for me, a big piece of my development of an adult as an adult has been embracing nuance. I I’m naturally wired for kind of 300% or nothing. And I think a lot of a lot of us are. And that’s how I was as a student with with crazy perfectionism. That’s how I was.
Sonya Looney (06:12)
Ha ha ha.
tm (06:20)
As a young athlete, you know, it’s like either you’re winning and going for the podium and the glory and the prize money and the you know hundred miles or seven-day adventure race, or like if you’re not doing that, like why the hell do anything at all? And and I’ve learned a lot through this Alzheimer’s process and and also through r reading conversations, discussions with great friends like you, you know, a long marriage journey ⁓ with my wonderful wife Amy, like all of these things. There’s so much nuance and and things aren’t just good.
or bad, it’s just ⁓ it’s it’s all together and and and if you can hold it all, that’s kind of the magic and in the wonder and the wisdom.
Sonya Looney (06:59)
Yeah, so like that’s a nice segue. So, like, and it’s funny, segue is spelled S-E-G-U-E, which I, you know, I’ve been writing my book, so I’m like, like I didn’t realize it was spelled that way. ⁓ yeah, there you go. ⁓ a little little spelling test here. But you know, I think a lot of us are on a journey toward to self-knowledge. Like we’re trying to have more self-awareness, we’re trying to have more self-knowledge. And I saw a really ⁓ provocative kind of prompt, ⁓ I think it was on Instagram, just like a meme someone posted how.
Travis Macy (07:06)
Hmm. I didn’t know that either.
Yep.
Sonya Looney (07:27)
It’s not enough to have self-awareness and self-knowledge, because that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re making any changes. It might just mean that you’re you’re just understanding yourself, but you’re not growing. It’s just more like being in your own echo chamber. ⁓ so when I think about adult development, it’s not just about knowledge, it’s about changing how we understand ourselves, changing how we relate to others and how we make sense of the world through
Travis Macy (07:38)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (07:50)
know, our life narrative that that unfolds through all these experiences. And like your kids are a bit older than mine, Travis, but like I have really young children. They’re four and six years old. And, you know, some of the things that I think about what happens is different than how they would create meaning from it because they don’t have the same context. ⁓ so it’s just very interesting how our mind changes over time as we get older because there’s so much complexity and richness and depth ⁓ about how we see the world.
Travis Macy (08:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I I would I would agree. Things do shift over time and and as they should. And and as I hear you saying that, Sonia, I I’m imagining, you know, some of the growth kind of is is by choice and and by you know means of exploration and journeys and so forth. He I I know for me a lot of the growth has felt like very forced, you know, through the parenting journey. My kids are 13 and 15 and
you know, I always knew I wanted to be a a parent and and absolutely love it. And it’s it’s been really hard. And especially when when they were younger, it’s so full on and it absolutely forces your hand ⁓ with growth. And and so do things like you know, an Alzheimer’s journey, something like a long-term relationship. ⁓ that forces growth because it’s ⁓ it’s gonna be wonderful and it’s not always gonna be easy and smooth.
Sonya Looney (09:12)
Mm-hmm. ⁓ so yeah, like what you were just talking about a little while ago, about how like as you’ve gotten older you’ve thought about how you embrace nuance more. Like it sounds like what you’re saying is your younger self didn’t realize that there’s space for that nuance.
Travis Macy (09:29)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn’t even ⁓ recognize it, realize it and and very much just, you know, had trouble sitting with that. The just the the natural inclination was again so much wired towards perfectionism in terms of performance, output, ⁓ you know, the next gold star or blue ribbon or or whatever. and and also just kind of not even realizing like things could be both good and and
bad simultaneously. And and that, you know, Alzheimer’s was such a huge teacher for me with that because yes, it is terrible and something, you know, I wouldn’t wish upon anyone. And my parents kept showing me all throughout the journey, just keep looking for the good and embracing the good. And if you look for it, like, man, the good is there. And there was so much good and connection and and love and and wonder all the way up until the end.
Sonya Looney (10:25)
Mm-hmm. That’s awesome. so yeah, a question, like I want the you guys, the listeners, to kind of do this with us. This is kind of a a prompt to reflect on your own journey, no matter how old you are. So the question, you know, is like looking back at your younger self, ⁓ you know, how do you see the world differently now? Like how have your beliefs and assumptions fundamentally changed, even even you know, if it’s too overwhelming to think about your whole life, like even over the last ten ten years, how you’re
Travis Macy (10:33)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (10:54)
beliefs have changed. And like I’ll share for me, ⁓ like I I I was like you, Travis, and I still struggle with this to a degree that like, you know, I need to be a certain way. I need to be perfect or I need to be competent or I need to be productive enough so that I can feel good. So that I can be a lovable and worthy person. And if I don’t do that, it’s it’s it’s scary because I worry that I’ll lose ⁓ you know, any type of social
Sonya Looney (11:24)
worth. And I don’t think like that anymore, but everything was organized around that to try to survive. ⁓ and enjoying what I was doing, but also like having to be competitive, having to be the best and the pressure that I would put on myself. And it wasn’t that I couldn’t enjoy the process because I was, but that it also kind of came with a dark side to it. So, you know, how that’s changed over time for me is ⁓
Sonya Looney (11:53)
I’m trying to hold those things at arm’s length. Like, of course I want to do well when I do things, but my sense of self is no longer entangled with it like it used to be. And it’s more like an itch sometimes that I’ll feel. And I’ll be like, no, I’m not gonna scratch that itch. I still wanna perform at a high level, but I I’ve built my social like environment so that I don’t need to be the way that I was. Like I don’t feel like the people
That I’m surrounding myself with care about those things. And my relationships aren’t about those things. And I don’t even talk about those things. and it changes the way that I and over time I’ve just changed the way that I strive towards my goals. Like I I I know I need to care about outcomes, but I I don’t I don’t think about them as much because I’ve learned over time that I don’t have control over those things. And like luck plays such a role. Like we think, I just need to
Travis Macy(12:28)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Sonya Looney (12:51)
work super, super hard. And if I work really hard, then good things will happen because that’s what we’re taught in our culture. But there’s so many other factors at play that are out of your control. So like you can’t you just can’t fixate on those things, even though we’re we are like pushed into fixating on those things.
Travis Macy (12:56)
Yep. yeah.
Mm-hmm. That’s a great answer, Sonia. But before I give some answers, I I want to ask you a little more. did you come to that growth? ⁓ you know, you did a master’s in applied positive psychology. I’m sure you learned a ton there. You know, you’ve interviewed so many people, you you’ve written so much, you you’ve had your athletics and parenting. You know, can you think of specific places where some of this growth
came about. ⁓ did it ever feel like kind of as I mentioned, did it ever feel like it was like absolutely forced upon you in in a in a brute way that you had to accept or ⁓ you know, how how did that how has that played out for you? And and it’s of course this is this is ongoing. You know, you and I were both born in nineteen eighty three. And so, you know, hopefully we have a a a long way to live. And and like, man, there’s a lot you know, whatever. Maybe I’m about halfway there over the course of life. There’s gonna be a lot of a lot more growth. So
Anyway, what how did those come about for you?
Sonya Looney (14:02)
Yeah, you know, I don’t really necessarily feel like they were forced on me. It was more ⁓ those opportunities, those things that happened, like especially having kids, it it forced me to slow down and to change the things I was doing. But I’m still the one that chose to grow. Like I could have just gone into a hole and gone into a depression. ⁓ but I was able to zoom out enough where I could see, wow, like I can’t do things like I used to, but I can still do many things. And
Travis Macy (14:06)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (14:32)
It’s almost like exposure therapy in a way where you see that you’re not doing the things that you were at the same at the same speed or maybe even at the same level, but you realize that you’re okay. And then you see that like there’s just so much like when you’re so myopically focused, like for me in sport, like it was I was doing so many things outside of sport, but sport was the the self-orienting anchor in my life. ⁓
And I I still experience this almost on a daily basis. Like there is so much more to life than I was allowing myself to see because I was so so focused. Like even today, like I went, I told you, like I went on a like a short little hike with my friends and we went I never do this. And we like I jumped, I went into a lake and just like swam around and then came home. Like there was no goal. There was no like, you know, I’ve been very conscious of this, like not to Strava, you know, going for a walk or like going for a hike even. Like I don’t Strava my hikes.
Travis Macy (15:04)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (15:26)
Like I just went and had fun. I’m like, wow. And then just looking around at all the people, like this is this is what living is. It’s it’s not like forcing yourself into doing or I mean, it’s not even really forcing. It’s like we want so badly to be good at things and we go all in on these things, which is great. Like I love going all in, but it comes at a cost. So I’m trying to this this might be the nuance you’re talking about of like, well, if I’m less productive or I’m not as good at whatever, like I’m gaining.
Travis Macy (15:33)
Hm.
Sonya Looney (15:56)
so much because I’m creating psychological richness. I’m I’m I’m giving myself an opportunity to experience life in many different colors, not just the same shade of one color. Like I feel like as an endurance athlete, we just keep it’s like I’m experiencing life in the shade of blue, but now I’m experiencing it in teal. And now I’m experiencing it in navy blue when you have an entire palette to work with. And so I’m I’m feel like I’m in the process of discovering the palette.
Travis Macy (16:05)
Hmm.
Mm. Yeah, that’s a great I I love that. You know, I was a I was talking with a a a friend yesterday about that idea of you know, art as a metaphor in even as as athletes, how how can we make this art or how can we you know e expand it? may more dynamism. You’re still outside moving, but you know, instead of sweat pouring in your eyes or
you know, going for the KOM or intervals, you’re just walking up to a lake and jumping in with your friends. And that’s like, you know, just as good and possibly even better. ⁓ I love that. I love those examples. All right. Maybe I’ll try to answer now. Like you know, one ⁓ comparing, okay, you know, a stories or views or constructs, you know, from childhood or the early years until now, you know, a a big shift for me has has been the idea of of
What does it mean ⁓ to be a man who supports his family? And you know, I told you I’ve always imagined I’m gonna be married, I’m gonna have kids, I’m gonna, you know, quote, support my family. And the story I grow up excuse me, grew up with and the example I saw was, you know, the man who goes to work and is successful at work and and earns money, and that’s the way to support the family. ⁓ and and I’ve realized, you know, that it’s just
so much more dynamic and in so many different ways to have a family and and to make it work. And there’s not, you know, right or wrong ways. and for for me, that’s really been leaning into ⁓ you know, being present with my family, being, you know, doing day-to-day support of little kids, you know, at at this phase of life.
⁓ doing things like managing the soccer carpool schedule and and driving kids around and you know all that, which are are not necessarily things that I love doing, but I realize like, hey, this is, you know, really important to my family and and it’s important and ⁓ invaluable work. And I and I think that’s ⁓ you know something that I’ve talked to many men about, many clients and and friends. It and it and it could be
⁓ challenging for sure because like you said it it it toys with you know these concepts of of identity. ⁓ and then I think you know additionally like I was wired for these stories about performance like performance is what matters whether it’s a work performance would be
you know, making money or the gold star or the you know, you could think about social media. You how many people came to my keynote? How many books did I sell? How many podcast downloads? You know, all of those things ⁓ to, you know, going more towards, and this is something you’ve really helped me learn about, Sonia, that human connection is the root of wellness. And like that’s where that’s like really where the golden piece is. And so for example, as as an athlete, you know, like my old story would be like, I don’t
I don’t do group runs or I don’t, you know, like ⁓ I I’m not gonna spend time, you know, going slower for other people or whatever. And I I’ve realized like, well, hey, that’s the the magic is being around other people. Or kind of like you said, with hiking up to a lake, you know, I’ve realized that ⁓ by attending live music and dancing ⁓ with Amy and with all of our wonderful friends here in Celida, like man, I can get the same engagement and feeling and intensity.
Sonya Looney (19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Travis Macy (19:51)
that I would have gotten, you know, whatever, right in the Leadville one hundred or something, kind of living on the edge, but I can have those same feelings in a different way, all but with even more connection and with a wonderful appreciation for, you know, the performers who are who are giving their gift and who are just as engaged. And I can see like, wow, these people are having the same feelings that I have w when I’m pushing hard as an athlete. ⁓
So yeah, lots of lots of shifts from those, you know, moving away from the kind of ⁓ I’m special type of mindset, which which you know, if I really scratch down, that was often a big motivator at times. And you know, if I’m special is the old story, a new story is much more communal. Like, hey, we well, first of all, everyone’s special. We’re all we’re all unique and and have our our quirks and stuff, and like even more so.
Life’s a team sport and and we’re all in this together and and it, you know, proving that we’re special really ⁓ you know, who cares?
Sonya Looney (20:57)
I love that. ⁓ yeah, thanks for sharing all of that. And I I think that this kind of moves us forward into talking about the word intimacy, which is a word that I really like. ⁓ I I think in my 20s I thought intimacy was like, you know, being naked with your partner or like something like that. But you know, when I think about intimacy, I think about it across all relationships. And something that has really changed over time is ⁓ just my just.
How I think about my friendships. And if I look back, like my all my friendships had a deep level of intimacy. ⁓ but I I realized like, ⁓ my people pleasing was a way that I wasn’t allowing intimacy to happen. And this is something I’ve been working on in therapy and and in general, of emotional honesty, ⁓ as a form of intimacy. And my my therapist said to me, like, you’re not being authentic if you are not being emotionally honest.
Travis Macy(21:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Sonya Looney(21:52)
And that authenticity is really important to me. ⁓ and so I was like kind of upset whenever she said that. And I realized like if I wanna have the the depth in relationships that I wanna have, I’m gonna have to change. There’s a word change. I I might be aware of my patterns, but I have to be willing to be brave enough to change how I’m communicating. ⁓ so what that looks like in my in my marriage, for example, is like not being afraid to say when something’s upset me.
Travis Macy (21:52)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (22:19)
and to say it immediately so that I don’t feel resentful. ⁓ what that looks like in my friends is like even admitting to myself, like I was putting so much pressure on myself to like everybody. I have to like every single person. I have to be, you know, super engaged and nice to every single person. I could be cordial to everybody, but I don’t have to like everybody. ⁓ I can choose the people that I feel safe with so that there can be mutual dependence, where there can be vulnerability, where there can be trust.
Travis Macy (22:34)
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (22:46)
⁓ and whenever something isn’t working, like I used to try to force everything. Like it’s not working, I’ll just push harder, I’ll just push harder, push harder. ⁓ in especially my friendships. And there’s certain friendships now where it’s like everybody doesn’t have to be my best friend. I can have acquaintances. Like I I didn’t know how to make degradation, or I if that’s even the right word, how to have like a difference between like a best friend and like your neighbor. Like they all had to be deep, intimate relationships. So now I’ve learned how to, how to like.
Travis Macy (22:51)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Sonya Looney (23:15)
How know when it’s safe to be vulnerable. learning that like it’s okay to to not be a people pleaser, to like when somebody or when somebody asks me, you know, if if, hey, can I help you? To like say yes, even though it feels so uncomfortable to say yes, to allow myself to be open to connection. And that requires intimacy. ⁓ it requires vulnerability, it requires showing your imperfections and your fears.
Travis Macy (23:37)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (23:44)
and your insecurities so that you can stay connected even with the possibility of rejection, but having enough social support around you so that if you do get rejected, you don’t have just like one person, you know, that’s rejected you and you’re all alone.
Travis Macy (23:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Hmm. I I love it. Good good for you. And and and way to embrace that whole range of of friendships. Like we have some friends who are who are very close and others who are still friends, but they don’t have to be close. And and and also, you know, one thing I’m learning whether whether it’s a friend or or a spouse or you know, a family member or whatever, like, you know, our our paths wind around. And at and at times, you know, the paths of two people may be more.
closely aligned and and that’s great and there’s connection and and there’s magic and everything. And and and then at times they they move further apart. But but that’s okay too. And they may come you know back together again or or they or they may not. You know, it’s just the the way of of being but it’s but it’s all okay. ⁓ I I agree Sadia with you know f for me direct communication has been a good way of growth. It’s something I often work with
⁓ you know, with personal development coaching clients. It’s it’s something that ⁓ we started a a small men’s group here in Celaida I don’t know, maybe a year or so ago. And it and it’s just been awesome because I think ⁓ stereotypically many men have less exposure and practice with these things, you know, growing up as kids, as teenagers, as as young men. I I know that I didn’t, and these are things I’ve really had to
learn and practice. And it’s been great to like do that in in a safe and focused environment with other men. And it and it’s very much helped me in my friendships beyond that, in in my marriage, you know, in in my relationships with with my kids. and that idea of, you know, kind of like you said, when we can communicate directly what what we want or how we feel without
concern or responsibility for the other person’s feelings. You know, like yes, we want the people we love and care about to feel good and be happy. But at the end of the day, we’re not responsible for everything they, you know, feel. And and also, you know, one one thing I often tell my kids is is so often other people’s reactions are simply that. They’re other people’s reactions. It doesn’t actually say anything about, you know, you or or us, however we’re saying it. It’s
know it’s it’s the other person’s reaction. And when when we can really sit with that and embrace it, particularly in the midst of of an intimate conversation with with a spouse, with a friend, with a parent, with someone really close to it, ⁓ that’s really hard to do. And when we can do it, like it’s it’s really it’s really good. I think it’s really good for both people, especially if both people are really ready for it.
Sonya Looney (26:43)
Yeah, and I I I think that it’s important to just add context. Like it’s not just like saying whatever you want and pissing people off and not caring, ’cause like it’s assuming that everybody is approaching conversations with with kindness and and care. ⁓ but I you know, I I don’t know if this is true, but it’s just I’ve been noticing, especially in our generation, millennials, it seems like this is a generational thing. Like the people like may maybe this is the case with with other others as well, but
Travis Macy (26:50)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Sonya Looney (27:11)
It very specifically seems like a part of the the overall narrative that we are all people pleasers. We are all trying to figure out that it’s not our job to manage everybody else’s emotions, that we can be present with them. ⁓ like Paul Bloom wrote this book against empathy and he talks about I forget the exact words he uses, but he talks about like how empathy isn’t about like merging with other people’s emotions and you have to take care of yourself and knowing when to engage and when not to.
Travis Macy(27:22)
Yeah.
Hm. Hmm. That’s interesting. Yeah. I I hadn’t thought about that in terms of the generational construct. And and I’m just thinking out loud, I wonder y you know, sort of the the gold star phase of of school and parenting, you know, probably mostly of the eighties and nineties, is are we feeling the the results ⁓ of that potentially?
Sonya Looney (28:01)
Well, a lot of I’ve been doing a lot of reading about this and this doesn’t apply to every single you know, relationship or n every parenting thing that happened. ⁓ but a lot of parents from that generation, they were enmeshed with their children. So the performance of their children reflected them, not their children. And there was a lot of ⁓ like not allowing kids to be who they are.
Travis Macy (28:17)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (28:27)
Because the parent was too worried about how that would reflect on them and just trying to control every single thing. And then parent parentification of the kid, where the kid’s job now is to manage the parents’ emotions. And then whenever you learn that as a kid, that my job is to manage my parents’ emotions, that’s how you manage everybody. So something that’s been pointed out to me that I’m always working on is I’m always thinking, how do people feel? Like, what are they thinking? And like doing everything I possibly can to keep people happy.
Travis Macy (28:38)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (28:56)
But what that’s doing is that’s trying to control everybody around me. I am trying to control everyone’s emotions around me so that I feel safe, which is actually not being authentic. So it’s very interesting when you start thinking about it that way.
Travis Macy (29:03)
Yeah.
Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. And and maybe, you know, to take a step further, like, you know, if your news story is it’s not my job to control everyone else’s feelings, and it is my job to, you know, feel my own feelings authentically, that’s actually freeing for everyone else. Cause then everyone else also gets to be more free to to feel and be who they are. You know, so it’s a real kind of nice domino into just more authentic intimacy, as it were, and and just letting people
be themselves, you know, like what a what a gift and what a great goal to simply be yourself because that’s what feels good and that’s also what draws other people ⁓ to you in so many ways.
Sonya Looney (29:50)
Yeah, and there’s also a reality of this that we’re not really talking about ⁓ is that it’s very hard. Like you because it’s very uncomfortable to feel like because you might still feel guilty. You have to sit with the discomfort, you have to like you have to be able to tolerate somebody else not feeling good and you not trying to fix every single thing. And there’s there’s a lot of I I think you learn that in parenting quite quickly. ⁓ but in general, like that you have to be able to just
Travis Macy (29:57)
Mm-hmm. Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (30:19)
be uncomfortable. ⁓ and it’s so easy. I’ve I’ve talked about this a lot and I think this is a a really good point to raise it is that we are so comfortable being uncomfortable physically, like I’ll go lift the weights, I’ll go run for hours at a time. But when it comes to emotional discomfort, we run for the hills. We do everything to avoid emotional discomfort.
Travis Macy (30:30)
Mm-hmm.
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just end this, right? End this feeling. And yeah, I th I think you’re right. It’s hard to change patterns. It’s hard to have those feelings. It’s it’s hard. I’m, you know, thinking back again to, you know, when my dad was diagnosed with with Alzheimer’s, the the the sadness, the you know, the everything was just thrown so askew that I was just trying to get away from it. Make these feelings.
End, you know, and I was literally running away, you know, running fast, breathing hard, trying to get away from it. And and just it came to a realization, you know, literally after a panic attack while running on a trail, like I have to do something else. I have to have a different system and different tools than just trying to run away from these things. I have to let myself ⁓ be with them. And and you’re right. I mean, that’s a large example, but it happens.
at a small moment, yeah, you know, with with the kids at home. We in a in a challenging ⁓ interaction in a long term relationship, which happens for everyone, sitting and being okay with that discomfort is is really hard, you know. I know it’s I know it’s really hard for me.
Sonya Looney (31:49)
Yeah. And then I think again, like bigger, even bigger picture of, you know, how polarized people are politically, like with religion, like all these things. And that polarization comes from like you you have people have a disagreement, and it’s not safe to have disagreements anymore because then people just abandon you and cancel you or label you. There’s no space for curiosity and acceptance of other people. And I think that in part that comes from this lack of ability, ⁓
Travis Macy (31:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sonya Looney (32:18)
to sit in that discomfort. Cause we’ll sit in the discomfort and then we’ll externalize it onto somebody else. And then it’s their fault we feel this way and that they’re a certain way. And then we destroy the relationship. and ⁓ it’s so important for us to learn how to disagree and still like be together instead of run away.
Travis Macy (32:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Sonya Looney (32:38)
this this kind of brings me, there’s a ⁓ a like adult development expert named Robert Keegan and he talks about meaning. but he talks about the socialized mind and the self-authoring mind and the self-transforming mind as a a way that we like develop and create meaning as we get older. ⁓ and I learned this just before, you know, trying to figure out how we wanted to structure this podcast.
I’m sorry? I’m starting with the socialized mind. The socialized mind is about our how we make meaning ⁓ through our through our identity and how it’s shaped through expectations, values, and approvals of of of other people and groups we belong to. So this really fits into what we were just talking about, ⁓ which could look like ⁓ you know, I’m a my self-worth is is completely reliant on approval. So that means I’m
Travis Macy (33:14)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (33:24)
afraid to disappoint other people. I can’t say no to people. ⁓ you know, I’m afraid of conflict. ⁓ there I’m constantly comparing myself. ⁓ and that’s that’s a very hard place to be. And you’re like when you’re younger, you’re, you know, and I I still feel feel like a lot of these stages I’m still learning. ⁓ but it’s like, who do other people need me to be is kind of the question your socialized mind is asking. ⁓ and you have to do that and to some extent when you’re a kid, otherwise like you die. Like you need, you know, you need to be
Travis Macy (33:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya (33:54)
⁓
Travis Macy (33:54)
Yep.
Sonya Looney (33:55)
but as you get older, you have you can you’re self sufficient. So you can start asking, who do I choose to be? And like these are the questions that we’ve been talking about this whole time. Like who am I choosing to be based on what’s important to me, not solely based on meeting the expectations of the group.
Travis Macy (34:12)
Hmm. Yeah, Sonia, it’s it’s it’s so relevant and it and it and it’s everywhere, right? It’s it’s within the friend group. It’s it’s within ⁓ you know, I remember lots of times ⁓ you know, hanging out with my young kids at at the park and being around mostly the other mostly moms, but some dads in and you know, like ⁓ there’s there’s you know there’s expectations around that. There’s I I think about you, you know, kind of one of my
wheelhouses is the world of ultrarunning and endurance mountain biking where, you know, I coach athletes and try to help people develop personally. But there’s there’s all these contingent stories that come into people’s minds. I will be a real ultrarunner when, you know, fill in the blank. I run 50 miles or I run a hundred miles or or you know, whatever. And and and that happens in in any sport. That happens, you know, in in the
in the business culture, right? You know, I will be good enough when I, you know, again, ⁓ fill in the blank. And it and it’s all it’s all contingent upon, you know, specific outputs or or typically doing things. I think a another model that I’ve been moving to and and just e exploring is is more of like a system of of or less of a system but but a way of like soul actualization. Like how do I just really
bring out myself. Again, I’ll use that phrase again. Be being yourself. ⁓ wow, what if that is is kind of a a guestone and and what does that mean? How how am I being or what am I doing to be myself? they seem like simple questions, but but I know for me, like those are really hard questions, especially when you’ve been w living in that system of the socialized mind and of contingent performances.
⁓ it can be scary to even think beyond what that might look like.
Sonya Looney (36:08)
Yeah. And like some of the questions to ask yourself in this socialized mind realm is like, who defines success for me? Or where did I come up with my definition of success? Which is a question I’ve been asking for over a decade, you know, of challenging what success actually means. And asking yourself, like, whose approval am I really seeking here? And will I ever get it? And an example of that for me is like back in the biking world, like it was always these like older guys. Like they’d be like working for the companies, you know, in the sponsorship companies, or like
Travis Macy (36:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (36:38)
I just wanted or you know, like other racers, like I just so badly wanted them to see me. I wanted to feel seen and to feel validated for my work and for like and it didn’t matter how good I got. Like it’s an example of seeking approval somewhere where you will never get it. And I realized that all the places I was seeking approval were places that I would never get it. So like I didn’t even know I was doing it. So like becoming aware of whose approval you are seeking and if it’s like a an endless cycle that you will never get.
Travis Macy (36:42)
Yep.
Mm.
Sonya (37:06)
And like what expectations that you have been unconsciously holding that you need to let go of. And like for me, one of those things is I need to be productive all the time. Cause I it’s so uncomfortable to like not be productive. But where that where did that expectation come from? And like, ⁓ you know, how my values have changed over time. Like just those are types of things because we’re socialized for them to be a certain way. But then I feel like when you’re midlife and like self-esteem and all these things actually im improve, like when we get older.
I think it’s because we change our social groups. ⁓ and we can choose to align ourselves with people who have similar, you know, types of ⁓ and we don’t have to be around similar people all the time, but people who will accept us. Cause I I know that I can get spooled up when I’m around people who are like super intense. ⁓ and I’m an intense person and I’m also very sensitive. So like being really ⁓ careful who I’m spending my time with because I can get I can easily go back to the old pattern.
Travis Macy (38:05)
Hmm. Interesting. Sonia, whose approval are you seeking now, if if anyone’s?
Sonya Looney (38:13)
probably my kids, honestly. I’m working very hard to like be the best mom I can be and for them to feel like loved. But I I also want to feel like they’re pr they approve of me. I don’t know. How about you?
Travis Macy (38:16)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah, I I I mean, as as you’re saying that, yeah, you know, it even begs the question like, should should I be seeking anyone’s approval other maybe other than my own, or sort of other than you know, I don’t know, something bigger? but yeah, if I’m honest, there there is, you know, there may ⁓ maybe has to be some level of approval seeking, you know, my current clients, my potential clients, you know, people who
might come to a retreat I’m organizing, like who on the one hand, I absolutely really want to help and think I can help and you know, and like, hey, there’s an exchange of money here and, you know, I need money to pay the mortgage and and those kind of things. So like those those things do exist. I I do I agree with you. Like I absolutely, you know, ⁓ want my kids’ approval, my wife’s approval, my close friends, you know, you know, my my mom. And and I know
You know, I know that those things are very much there. ⁓ and I don’t think I have anything to to prove with them. But yeah, it is it is still important. ⁓ I had a, you know, I had a really nice moment yesterday out ⁓ out outside. I was actually with with a client kind of doing a walking coaching session and and I had this thing where, you know, I like to look at the horizon. I live in this awesome valley here in Salida and just look at the horizon and do a really slow three sixty
look around and ⁓ you know the the idea of the day was like let’s do this together and let’s view it from someone else’s perspective and and I decided to go from from my dad’s perspective and see what came up with that. ⁓ and it felt really good to like have a sense of like wow my dad is everywhere and the sense I got is like he’s really proud of me and of of of my client who I was with. Like he’s really proud of us for doing what we’re doing
right now ’cause it’s meaningful and it’s authentic. and ⁓ and that that felt good. That was a nice a nice moment of of approval for sure.
Sonya Looney (40:31)
Yeah, that change of perspective really helps reframe the narrative.
You know, I I think we’re using the wrong word. approval seeking, like I’ve actually talked about this in some of my keynotes. Approval seeking has a very much of an external focus and it has a strong dependence on others’ opinions for our sense of worth. and I think it actually leads to more anxiety when we’re seeking approval. ⁓
Travis Macy (40:47)
Mm.
Sorry.
Sonya Looney (41:01)
I think the word that we’re trying to use is recognition. And I I like this is all part of mattering and the broader work that I am doing. We want to feel not necessarily approved of, but we want to feel seen and recognized. ⁓ I want to feel seen and valued for my strengths, for my qualities, for what I bring. I want to ⁓ the motivation is not coming from anxiety, but from a a desire to make an impact, to feel connected.
Travis Macy (41:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Sonya Looney (41:29)
To to be there, ⁓ I I think it contributes more to a sense of belonging instead of trying to seek belonging. ⁓ those are different things. When I’m trying to seek belonging, that was like the example I was trying to give. Like, if I get approval from these old, these old white guys who are like, you know, never think I’m good enough, then I’ll finally feel like I belong. Versus like, you know, I want I just want to feel seen and valued for who I am as a person and who you spend your who and so who you’re looking to.
Travis Macy (41:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Sonya Looney (41:59)
For that, I think is different than approval seeking. ⁓ and it’s such an important part because like I I think that we’re too far down the rabbit hole in our culture right now of like self-help, because it’s all focused on the self. And like it only matters what I think, and it only matters if I make myself better. But the reality is like that doesn’t work because humans are connected beings. We heal in connection with other people. So, like, how can we look at our our personal development?
Travis Macy (42:14)
Yes.
Sonya Looney (42:28)
in a way that is about the community, not just about the individual.
Travis Macy (42:33)
Mm-hmm. I I love it. I my my ninety year old neighbor Rick who who I love and appreciate and has become a great friend, told Amy and I the other day ⁓ that healing only happens in relationship. And and and I think he’s I think he’s right. Like yeah, that that magic, yeah, the self-work, of course, is important, but the the magic is is the interconnection. ⁓ Sonia, I love that you said mattering instead of approval, because when I hear that.
word approval. I definitely do feel some anxiety, you know, the performance anxiety. I’ve got to do it right. I’ve got to, you know, whatever. And and when I think mattering, it’s, it’s again, it’s more of like, okay, I’m just gonna be myself and do my thing. And it and it matters to other people. And and I do very often feel that and and and it feels awesome when it happens. How ⁓ you you you are an expert in mattering. You’re working very hard in your forthcoming book on this topic. Give us like a
a two minute ⁓ you know, advice on mattering? Are are there, you know, a few things or even just hints like what can we be thinking about to ⁓ to manifest feelings of mattering?
Sonya Looney (43:43)
Yeah, well, first I’ll point you like I can’t I can’t talk about it in two minutes because it’s too like you just can’t. ⁓ I’ll point people to the solo. I I recorded a solo episode on mattering like a month or two ago. So make sure you look at that. But mattering is about the experience of adding value and feeling valued, not only to yourself, but to other people. ⁓ and you can’t experience mattering without fairness. And so that’s something else to think about when we’re in unfair contexts, including being fair to yourself.
Travis Macy (43:48)
Hey yeah.
It’s fun.
Sonya Looney (44:12)
⁓ yeah, this is what my book is about. This is what all my top my keynotes are about. This is I’m I’m actually building a research project, potentially turning it into a PhD about this as well. I think many people are trying hard to add value. They’re trying to add value to themselves, they’re trying to add value to others, but they’re not feeling valued. and there are a whole host of reasons why that’s the case that we don’t have time to get into today. but like feeling seen and recognized and heard, like,
Travis Macy (44:13)
Mm.
Mm.
Sonya Looney (44:38)
And needed by other people and invested in and looking in places where you’re making your mattering contingent upon performance is so is is so everywhere. ⁓ so how can you how can you allow my my question, a prompt would be how can you allow yourself to feel valued? And this goes back to what we were talking about with people pleasing. I am not allowing myself to feel valued if I will not be vulnerable enough to speak up whenever I need something because I’m too afraid. I am blocking my experience of feeling valued.
Travis Macy (45:04)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (45:07)
If I am people pleasing.
Travis Macy (45:10)
Interesting. And would that also be I like how you said fairness. Would that also be an example of of fairness? Like if I’m not speaking up, that then that’s unfair to myself.
Sonya Looney (45:23)
Yeah, and like fairness is is like this is why it’s hard to talk about in two minutes. Like the fairness is a much broader context. Like mattering has been studied in marginalized communities. So the, you know, and and you can you can you can like I give examples in my book of how this applies, you know, in in a person’s life that isn’t in a marginalized community, but this is very, very much an important thing because how can you add value? How can you feel invited to to add value, to feel like people care about you, that you’re important to others when you’re marginalized?
Travis Macy (45:32)
Mm.
Sonya Looney (45:52)
Like there if there are not conditions of fairness, then you just can’t feel like you matter. And bad things happen when people don’t feel like they matter.
Yeah. So I’m gonna it’s very hard. The hardest thing about writing a book is I’m I I am an open book, so to not constantly be talking about what I’m writing about is incredibly difficult. ⁓ so ⁓ I’m trying very hard to just I I I’m an oversharer and I’m trying not to overshare because I’m not supposed to be sharing all everything about the book.
Travis Macy (46:00)
All excited to to read more.
Yeah. I yeah,
well you don’t you don’t want to give away the, you know, Cliff’s notes, but but I think it’s it’s it’s great to share because you’re excited about it and because this work matters.
Sonya Looney (46:31)
And it it I just I really feel like this book is gonna be such an important book for people. I I not from like an I’m so smart, but it’s like I know, I listen, I know what’s happening in the world, I know this book is needed. And that actually brings us to the next part of of talking about adult development, the self-authoring mind. it’s the internal compass. and
I think as we get older, we develop self-trust. We develop trust in our intuition and the things that we know to be true. ⁓ we start trusting our own judgment. and that is so important to tease out that because there’s a there’s a lot of noise out there of what’s right and what you should listen to. And whenever you can tease out that signal of of who you are and like what that judgment is telling you, and to be brave enough to listen to that intuition.
Travis Macy (47:24)
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (47:24)
I also
think good things happen. So that’s another form of adult development.
Travis Macy (47:29)
Yeah, I I love it. I mean, that’s that’s definitely something that’s been part of my journey and and and still is, you know, moving away from sort of getting advice from other people, like what should I do? And and more of an understanding of like, hey, the the answers are inside and and it’s it’s already there. It’s in my intuition and and listening to that, you know. And that’s and that’s it’s hard to learn how to do that. It’s hard when, you know.
Sonya Looney (47:50)
Yeah.
Travis Macy (47:59)
when that goes against, you know, someone else we care about, friends, family members, ⁓ it et cetera. you know, and and it’s hard. Sometimes we feel conflicting stories within ourselves, you know, about this this course versus versus that course. But yeah, tapping into that I think is really valuable and and it comes, you know.
Sonya Looney (48:11)
Mm-hmm.
Travis Macy (48:20)
Sometimes it comes about over time. Sometimes I I know for me, you know, the the Alzheimer’s diagnosis was kind of a lightning bolt of sorts that that forced that type of stuff. you know, for a lot of people in the midlife years, there are big changes, whether it’s a retirement or maybe, you know, beginning empty nesting or a long term relationship comes to an end or something. And and these things like they they force, you know, wow, I gotta reconsider here.
retirement by choice might be one. Or hey, in the world of AI, like man, a lot of people are gonna lose jobs and a lot of those jobs create the foundation of someone’s identity. I am a computer programmer, for instance. Okay, well, how d how does that change and where is the intuition and and the soul? and where where do we go from here? These are big and and hard questions.
Sonya Looney (49:13)
Mm-hmm. And and I I think like, yeah, another part is the self-transforming mind. And that is the part of you that recognizes that your own worldview is incomplete. And actually, I think that goes back to like the palette I was talking about, how I thought like everything was just shades of blue and there’s just so many different colors that I won’t even be able to sense. ⁓ but I don’t I I I think that this is something that’s missing in a lot of adult development, is that most people do believe their worldview is complete and that they have all the answers and they know everything.
Travis Macy (49:20)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (49:43)
And that’s where so much judgment and pain ⁓ and and like being mean and and causing problems and you know political strife and all these things is because we think our worldview is complete. ⁓ so come being curious to be able to revise your belief or to hold conflicting beliefs, you know, hold it all in one container, and acknowledging that somebody else, someone else might be saying something. And even if for you that’s not true.
Travis Macy (49:48)
Yes.
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (50:13)
That is true for them. And that is very hard sometimes because you’re like, Well, I’m right. It’s like, Well, yeah, you’re right, but the other person’s also right because you don’t know everything.
Travis Macy (50:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm. I like it. Yeah, you know, one other thing I thought of, Sonia, when this idea of intuition, a bit a shift for me recently. ⁓ you know, a a a wise friend recommended, like, hey, maybe spend less time in sort of all of these self-help and optimization and constructs and you know, here I am. You and I are talking about this stuff. I’ve written a couple of books that are deeply rooted, you know, in in self-help sort of stuff. You know, we’ve both done all these podcasts, interviewed all these people, like
It’s it’s really good and it and it’s fun and it and it’s learning and it’s really helped me, it’s really helped my clients. You could say the same. And you know, to some extent, I think there’s value in going back to like, well, what are the what are the answers that are that are within? You know, and less about this construct or that system or or whatever, and we’re just like, what really is in here? And and that’s where the answers are, you know, and and that’s hey, let’s figure out what works.
For me and allows me to be my best and fullest self.
Sonya Looney (51:27)
Yeah, for sure. And also I think ⁓ talking about identity, like how our identity has shifted over time, like my identity has shifted and not even necessarily shifted, but just gotten more complex and more flexible. ⁓ you know, we can think like I’m an athlete or I’m a parent or you know, I’m the smart one or I’m the independent one. And all those things can be rooted in some of the things that we just talked about that change over time, like your who your sense of how you show up in the world.
Travis Macy (51:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (51:55)
And how you can have a more flexible identity where you’re maintaining some sort of coherent sense of self, but that can still be evolving and not rooted onto something that is dependent on like your effort, basically.
Travis Macy (52:09)
I I I like it. What else? Any any other ⁓ th thoughts on you know, adult identity shifts over time? Any any other experts we should hear about here, Sonia?
Sonya Looney (52:20)
well, I’m looking at the time and like another one to look into is Eric Erickson, but ⁓ I I wanted to ask you, Travis, because I kind of look to you as an inspiration for myself. Like I’m still wading through this sort of I I’m I’m blanking on the word ⁓ it starts with an L. It’s like the it’s like being in between states. ⁓ like yeah, liminal space. Like this is my first year without sponsors in twenty years.
Travis Macy (52:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Liminole maybe?
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (52:49)
And I’ve sort of just brushed
Travis Macy (52:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Sonya Looney (52:50)
over it and not really thought about it. Like, who cares? Like whatever. And then I’ll hear myself say, like, I used to be a pro mountain biker, but I haven’t retired from mountain biking. And I see my peers like having like retirement parties or like officially announcing retirement. But for me, I I’m never gonna retire from being an athlete. So for me, calling it retirement just does not feel right. It just I’ve I’ve become more flexible in what my athletic identity is, but
Travis Macy (53:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (53:13)
It’s just kind of weird. And then talking about the specialness thing that we were talking about earlier, like everybody’s like, Sonia’s blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, well, I’m not really like I ride my bike once a week now. Like I’m not really a cycl I don’t I sit in Mad, like, I don’t even know if I’m a cyclist anymore. Like I just ride when I feel like it. and there it I I think it takes a lot of courage to face transition in life. And we’re talking you were talking about midlife and coaching, and it’s funny, like
Travis Macy (53:17)
Yeah.
Totally.
Sonya Looney (53:38)
Almost all of my coaching clients, all of them actually are midlife tran people in transitions. Every single person who’s ever come to me. Yeah, because that is part of adult development, is being in a transition, being in that liminal space where you’re like sort of letting go of like the side of the pool. And then it requires you kind of floating a little bit and being like, ⁓ okay, like I’m here and I’m okay, but like, what does this even mean?
Travis Macy (53:44)
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah. man. Sonya, great, great question. ⁓ maybe I’ll take the chance to give a little bit of a plug. I’m hosting a retreat with a colleague. ⁓ this is in October here in Salida, Colorado. it’s four days. It’s an ultra mindset gathering for men who have been shaped by sport. ⁓ of course, ⁓ there there may be future ones for women and or ⁓ and or mixed gender groups, but
Sonya Looney (54:12)
Yeah, do it.
Travis Macy (54:32)
Anyway, it it’s it’s just it’s stuff like this, Sonia, whether someone’s been a professional athlete or maybe the last time you know they competed as an athlete was high school basketball, but it’s still a big piece of it, and these questions are still with us. So we’re working on presence, leadership, movement, energy stuff, connection, and and finally just transition, as you said, and and being yourself. So I’m I’m I’m super excited for it. Like these are these are big questions and
This is the stuff we wanna help people work through. and you know, to address your your experience, Sonya. I I mean, I sort of moved away or relinquished or retired or whatever, at least from you know, the kind of pro sponsorship world of of ultra running and adventure racing, about 10 years ago. And and it’s those kind of questions, Sonya, they’re they’re still kind of here, you know. I’m I’m feeling quite good about it. I’m actually like, I would say I’m
generally as happy as I’ve ever been as an athlete. And that part of, you know, I still very much say and feel I am an athlete. ⁓ and it’s it’s a lot different. You know, there’s there’s less of that sense of specialness. Of course, there’s there’s not the pressures to hit the podium, you know, to hit the prize money bonuses, to get the contract next year, to impress the the people at the company or whatever.
And and it’s great. you know, in my experience, you know, like not having those things is is really nice. And I’m I’ve kind of learned like, you know, if we are really embracing that athlete identity, I think there’s really something to be said of like, hey, I get to do what I want, you know. And if you feel like a cyclist, Sonya, and as a cyclist, right now you want to bike one day a week or one day a month, or you know, one day a year or something, if you still feel that way, like
You are, you know, I I would I I say I’m a cyclist too. I haven’t ridden a bike in like four weeks because I’ve been running and I haven’t really felt like biking, but like that’s still totally there for me. ⁓ and it’s also really manifested, and you and I have talked about this. The the the athlete experience has become so much more dynamic and comprehensive where
It used to be going out and it was it was the battle and it was the pace and you know when I’m running up a mountain, this is man versus nature. I’m gonna conquer this thing and I’m gonna yeah, you know, whatever, like this this this battle. And now it’s for me, it’s become like man with nature and we are in this together and like you know, in the last month, like I’ve done all this running all alone, but I’m not alone because like my dad is with me every step and it’s been awesome to be out there.
Sonya Looney (57:07)
Exactly.
Travis Macy (57:20)
connecting with him in that way and and like yes maybe I am you know training with the possibility of an event in mind or something but but it’s also like it’s the difference between pursuing and going for something and striving for it and being just drawn. I’m being pulled forward you know to lace up my shoes and go for a run and be out there. And like for me right now that feels really good, you know, and like I think that’s something
You know, you can exp like you again, you could ride your bike once a week or once a month or ten times a week and feel that draw, you know, and like what a cool freedom for you to follow that intuition of like, hey, if I want to ride a bike, I can. And if I want to go with some friends and walk up to a lake and swim around and have fun, that’s just as good and maybe even better too. You know, I think it’s an awesome expansive step for you. ⁓
And and I know it’s hard, you know, like I said, I still I you know, those thoughts get going. They’re still they’re still there and it’s okay.
Sonya Looney (58:22)
Yeah, like well well, first of all, the retreat sounds awesome. ⁓ if people want to do it, where do they find stuff about the retreat? I wish I could go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Travis Macy (58:31)
Yeah. Well, maybe in the future, Sonya, you could you could be a guest, you could be a collaborator. We’re gonna see it this
guy, Anthony, who I’m working with, like he is, you know, it’s sometimes you meet someone, it’s like I’ve never met someone like this. And Anthony is one of Like I am so excited to work with him and and share with him. So yeah, anyway, Travis Macy dot com, look on there, send me a ⁓ there’s a contact form on there. It’s it’s all it’s all there.
Sonya Looney (58:45)
Mm. That’s cool.
It’s like the flexible yeah. So this is like the flexible identity piece of it. ⁓ and I love what you said. It’s like this is something that I’ve talked to Matt a lot about. And ⁓ it’s funny, like sometimes he’s talked about performance, like, like blah blah blah. I’m like, I don’t train like that anymore. I can’t train like that anymore. I’ll and I’m choosing not to, and like I don’t want to talk about performance. And I get like I I I got I went off on this tangent the other day. I was like, I don’t want to talk about performance at all.
Travis Macy (59:02)
Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (59:25)
⁓ it makes me feel angry to talk about performance because to me it feels like there’s a forcing happening. And I’ve watched Matt try to force himself through training. I force myself through so many things. And I’m at like maybe and maybe that will change. But right now, I don’t want to force myself to do anything physical. if it if it feels good, I want to do it. Or if it feels like the not even good, if it feels right, I will do it.
Travis Macy (59:28)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Sonya Looney (59:50)
And if it doesn’t feel right, I won’t. And that’s sort of what you talked about of like letting it pull you along. Like you can feel, you can feel it, whatever that thing is, like drawing you along like a current versus you fighting the current, forcing yourself to make something happen so that you can be 1% better. So for what reason? so I I I am I am admitting like I’m a bit disillusioned at the moment. And I’m sure that I will process all of this, but I’m I I get I get really frustrated and grumpy now whenever I think about optimization and performance.
Travis Macy (1:00:00)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Looney (1:00:20)
⁓ because it feels inauthentic, I guess, for me. So I just it’s so it’s so funny. I just don’t even like I don’t wanna train, I don’t wanna do intervals, I I don’t wanna think about like, ⁓ you know, I just wanna be healthy and durable.
Travis Macy (1:00:20)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Totally. Yeah. Sonia, and that’s and that’s absolutely okay. And honestly, like when I sit here and and I hear you as your friend, you’re you’re saying, you know, right now is not the time to force myself. Like that sounds like a statement that’s based number one in your intuition, which is awesome, and number two in in a developing adult identity, you know, and that’s awesome too. And and and it’s also like, very often whether it’s
⁓ sports or relationships or or work or whatever, I I know for me, I put this pressure on myself, like I am deciding for the rest of my life, you know, am I a cyclist? Am I a you know, whatever, fill in the blank. And and when I when I sit back and I’m like, hey, I’m just making a decision for right now, you know, and and Sonia in in one month or one year or 10 years,
Sonya Looney (1:01:12)
Yeah.
Travis Macy (1:01:28)
Y you know, if you’re who knows, you’re in a different stage of parenting or work or whatever and you’re like LFG, I wanna train hard and optimize and perform, you know, and you know, break the world record in the hour on the track or you know, who know? But like you can do that. You can you can totally do that and it’s fine to have that back and forth.
Sonya Looney (1:01:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
L F G H S B. All right. That’s a good place to wrap it up. ⁓ thanks so much for ⁓ yeah, this was a really rich conversation. I feel actually this is good. I feel a little bit uncomfortable ⁓ publishing. And this is what I’m trying to do is just be more open. it’s like, did I say something that was bad or blah, blah. It’s like, nope, like here I am. So thank you for drawing hope and draw that out of me as well and for
Travis Macy (1:01:52)
There you go. ⁓
Sonya Looney (1:02:14)
just being my friend and for it’s just really cool to get to talk about these things. And I I really hope that hope that today’s conversation has helped, you know, our listeners, you guys, like think about what’s happening in your lives and how you’ve changed over time. And it’s just that self reflection change and collective growth is just so important.
Travis Macy (1:02:33)
Mm. Yeah. Thanks, Sonya. I really enjoyed it. And and you know, again, it’s okay to feel that discomfort and and especially as we’re, you know, transitioning or transforming in our adult identities. Sometimes that that that new self, that new ⁓ you know, intuition or whatever it is, sometimes that does feel uncomfortable. ⁓ and that’s that’s okay too. So ⁓ thanks for inviting me. ⁓ I hope people enjoyed it as as well. And yeah, have a good one. Talk to you next time.
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