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In life, death is the only certainty. Yet, rather than viewing mortality as a morbid inevitability, what if we embraced it as a powerful catalyst for living life to its fullest? Join me, Sonya Looney, on this introspective journey as I sit down with Jodi Wellman, an executive coach, researcher, and author.

At the core of our existence lies the awareness of our mortality. Death, with its finality, serves as a constant reminder of our limited time on Earth. It prompts us to confront our deepest fears and contemplate the legacy we wish to leave behind. For many, the thought of death evokes feelings of unease and apprehension. However, what if we shifted our perspective and viewed mortality not as a source of dread, but as a source of motivation?

Living without regrets

With over a decade of experience as an executive coach and a background in positive psychology, Jodi Wellman brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to her work. She holds a Masters of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania and is the author of the book “You Only Die Once: How to Make It To the End with No Regrets” which explores the intersection of mortality and living a fulfilling life.

Jodi’s research delves into the psychological dynamics of mortality awareness and its impact on human behavior, motivation, and decision-making. Through her work, she seeks to help individuals confront their fears of death and embrace life with greater vitality, purpose, and courage. Jodi’s unique perspective challenges conventional wisdom and offers practical strategies for living a life of meaning and fulfillment.

Jodi introduces the concept of “living wider and deeper,” which involves assessing our lives based on both vitality and meaning. Vitality encompasses the energy and enthusiasm we bring to our daily experiences, while meaning pertains to the sense of purpose and fulfillment derived from our actions. Achieving a balance between vitality and meaning allows us to lead richer, more fulfilling lives.

Regret is a common byproduct of unfulfilled dreams and missed opportunities. However, by embracing mortality, we gain clarity on what truly matters to us. Jodi encourages listeners to seize the moment and pursue their passions with unwavering determination. By aligning our actions with our values and priorities, we can live with integrity and purpose, free from the burden of regret.

Finding courage in self-awareness

The fear of missing out (FOMO) and the pressure to live an extraordinary life can be paralyzing. We often find ourselves trapped in a cycle of comparison, constantly measuring our achievements against those of others. However, true fulfillment lies not in external validation but in the pursuit of authenticity and meaning. By embracing our mortality, we are reminded of the fleeting nature of time and the importance of living in alignment with our values.

Terror Management Theory (TMT) posits that humans are driven by a fundamental fear of death, which influences our behavior and decision-making processes. According to TMT, individuals employ various strategies, such as cultural beliefs and self-esteem bolstering, to mitigate existential anxiety. By acknowledging our mortality, we gain insight into the underlying motivations that shape our lives. Through introspection and self-awareness, we can transcend the limitations imposed by our fear of death and embrace life more fully.

Jodi encourages listeners to embrace new experiences and break free from routine. By infusing our lives with novelty, we can reignite our passion for living and discover new opportunities for growth and fulfillment. Additionally, mindfulness allows us to savor the present moment and cultivate a deeper sense of gratitude and contentment.

Finding fulfillment in daily life

As we navigate the complexities of life, it is essential to periodically reassess our priorities and values. Jodi shares insights from her own journey of self-discovery and encourages listeners to embark on a similar path of introspection and growth. We gain perspective on what truly matters and can make informed decisions that align with our aspirations and values.

So, how can you live wider and deeper? Here are a few actionable takeaways from our conversation:

  1. Reflect on Your Values: Take time to identify your core values and priorities in life. What truly matters to you? By clarifying your values, you can make decisions that align with your authentic self and lead to greater fulfillment.
  2. Embrace Novelty: Challenge yourself to step outside your comfort zone and embrace new experiences. Whether it’s trying a new hobby, exploring a different culture, or taking up a creative pursuit, novelty stimulates growth and expands your perspective on life.
  3. Cultivate Mindfulness: Practice mindfulness to cultivate a deeper awareness of the present moment. Engage in activities such as meditation, deep breathing, or journaling to quiet the mind and foster inner peace. By being fully present, you can savor life’s simple pleasures and find joy in the here and now.
  4. Pursue Meaningful Connections: Foster meaningful connections with others by prioritizing quality over quantity in your relationships. Invest time and energy in nurturing deep, authentic connections that bring mutual support and fulfillment. Share your passions, dreams, and vulnerabilities with trusted friends and loved ones.
  5. Take Calculated Risks: Don’t let fear hold you back from pursuing your dreams. Take calculated risks and embrace uncertainty as an opportunity for growth. Whether it’s starting a new business, traveling to a foreign country, or pursuing a passion project, stepping outside your comfort zone can lead to transformative experiences and personal growth.
  6. Practice Gratitude: Cultivate an attitude of gratitude by focusing on the blessings in your life. Take time each day to express gratitude for the people, experiences, and opportunities that enrich your life. Gratitude opens your heart to the abundance around you and fosters a deeper sense of contentment and fulfillment.
  7. Live with Intention: Be intentional in how you live your life. Set clear goals and priorities that reflect your values and aspirations. Take deliberate action towards your goals, staying focused and committed even in the face of challenges. By living with intention, you can create a life that is meaningful, purposeful, and aligned with your deepest desires.

Living wider and deeper

In embracing mortality, we discover the power to live life on our own terms, free from the constraints of fear and regret. By confronting our mortality head-on, we gain clarity on our priorities and values, enabling us to pursue our passions with unwavering determination and purpose. As we navigate the uncertainties of life, let us remember that our time on Earth is finite. Let us seize each moment with courage and conviction, knowing that every experience, no matter how fleeting, holds the potential for growth and transformation. After all, as Jodi reminds us, “You only die once, but you live every day.”

Here are a few key takeaways:

– How thinking about death can motivate living intentionally without regrets by focusing on a limited time horizon
– How pursuing both vitality and meaning through experiences and purpose can lead to a more fulfilling life
– Learn about incorporating novelty
– Having courage to take risks and “play to win”
– Finding balance between personal growth, self-care, and maintaining well-being

Listen to Jodi’s episode on living without regret

If you found today’s episode enlightening and want to hear more, make sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Be sure to share this episode!


– Read Jodi’s book You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets to learn more about her approach
– Read my reflections on Life’s Peaks and Valleys
– Learn more about Jodi’s work

Episode Chapters

  • 00:00 – Introduction and Counting Down the Moments of Life
  • 02:22 – The Fear of an Unlived Life
  • 05:31 – What is the Good Life?
  • 08:28 – Conceptualizing Life by Thinking About Death
  • 10:35 – Living Wider and Deeper: Finding Vitality and Meaning
  • 14:38 – The Courage to Live a Life Worth Living
  • 19:54 – Getting Out of Autopilot: Breaking Free from Comfortable Routines
  • 25:20 – Shaking Up Routines and Embracing Novelty
  • 33:37 – Finding the Balance: Squandering vs. Savoring
  • 38:34 – The Importance of Curiosity
  • 41:35 – Living a Wee Bit Dead Inside vs. Living Like We Mean It
  • 46:41 – Balancing Meaning and Purpose with Vitality and Fun


Transcript: Jodi Wellman

Sonya Looney 0:01
We just did the countdown to the start of this podcast. And I felt like we were counting down the moments of our life.

Jodi Wellman 0:08
Oh, I love how on brand you are. I mean, I thought I was the only weirdo that ever thought that way when every time I see a countdown, but I love that you said that. Thank you.

Sonya Looney 0:18
Well, Jodi, I’m so excited to have you on to talk about your new book and 4000 Mondays, because the approach that you take is a way that I’ve made all the big decisions in my life thinking about death, so that I can think about life.

Jodi Wellman 0:33
Well, I didn’t know you were this much of a kindred spirit. I always knew you’re pretty darn cool. I had that Inkling I know this, but but the fact you have already ushered it into your life in a way that most people aggressively push it away. Right.

Sonya Looney 0:48
So let’s, let’s talk about this. Why, why do we push death away? Why do we just not ever want to think about it?

Jodi Wellman 0:54
Yeah, I mean, it’s so distasteful, the idea that we’re not going to be around forever, or even for long, depending how you look at it. You know, I think that it is this the deepest, darkest fear we have that we’re all born with a knowledge of, or at least until our parents tell us. And we are terrified of it. In fact, terror is the word because in this field of death studies, there’s a very popular theory called Terror management theory. And so not everybody actively feels terror when you think about it. In fact, clearly, we don’t we find it almost we find it cathartic, interesting and amusing, amongst many other words, but when, when questioned, most people identify that as their number one fear, you know, we’re the public speaking. And so we just do a really great job psychologically of tap dancing around it and push it away and avoiding it. And I just give everybody who’s still listening to this episode of your podcast, kudos for sticking around to figure out what it’s about. Because it is, it’s scary, right? It represents the end of us and that a nihilistic view of Obliteration is not something that most people have even fathom to be cathartic and helpful. For listing desperation, that

Sonya Looney 2:04
sounds very comforting.

Jodi Wellman 2:07
I mean, I gotta make a point. Here it is. Yeah, it does sound a little bit, a little distasteful. And yet again, as we’re going to probably shift our tide of the conversation. It’s like, oh, my gosh, but it’s this gift we have available to us to put everything in perspective.

Sonya Looney 2:22
Yeah, I like to think of it as number one. Yes, there’s this unknown quality, about death, and whatever beliefs you have about death. But number two, I think there’s this fear that we’re never really going to live our life the way that we hoped. So the idea of death means we’ve run out of time to live the life that we hoped to have lived.

Jodi Wellman 2:42
So on, yeah, you’re spot on to so much of the research that I glom on to, and this is, in many ways, some of the motivational fuel for me to do this work. Because for in many studies, they show that that anxiety people have about death is less to do with the fear of an ending life, and the mystery of what’s beyond. And it is more about exactly what you’ve said in the wording even grabs me it’s the fear of life on lift of the unlived life. Doesn’t that just sound? I mean, I don’t know about you, but it grips me this, this feeling about oh, my goodness, imagine getting to the end and feeling like we didn’t give give it a shot? Oh, doesn’t that take your breath away? I

Sonya Looney 3:27
also going to argue the other side of it too, just to you know, I’m doing the counter arguments a lot these days after map. So

Jodi Wellman 3:37
I’m ready. Go for it. What about the pressure

Sonya Looney 3:39
that we went put on ourselves to live such an amazing life? Like I only have so much time left? So now there’s all this pressure to live this great life?

Jodi Wellman 3:47
Yeah, yeah, I get really sensitive about that. And the reason why is because I want to be very careful in the work I do, where I use language that actually sets me up for trouble. Okay, so I refer to in sort of the model I have for living, it’s about getting to the, you know, part in the framework in this quadrant where it’s called astonishingly alive. And it’s not a subtle word, you know, astonishing is like it’s pretty awe striking and grandiose sounding. And I always had this need to put an asterix and discuss it and say, Oh, just but wait, because there is no formal prescription about what an astonishingly alive life looks like. Like for you. I kind of have a feeling it’s on a mountain bike, and there is an elk or something involved or a Yak, I guess that’s a yak not an elk. Big difference. And or other people that feel like their version of a great life involves something that maybe looks traditionally really good on social media. And then there are other people like me, I like a quite simple life for the most part. And so there’s all shapes and sizes and ways of living astonishingly. So. I want to be really careful in say, first of all, from the optics looking in, it doesn’t need to look a certain way. It’s relative to what makes you feel lit up. And the internal pressure. I mean, I let’s put it this way, I’ve yet to really come across somebody who has overdone it. On that act of living. It’s like there’s I think Nietzsche said it man is the only animal that has to be encouraged to live. Like, that is a better problem to deal with. If we’re having to say, Whoa, calm down on the Yolo crap. You know what I mean? Like, I think that we can handle that problem. I think,

Sonya Looney 5:31
as I think of my dog going crazy, like he actually Sprint’s and runs into the wall for fun like that dog has no problem worrying about living his best life

Jodi Wellman 5:40
with a helmet.

Sonya Looney 5:43
So let’s talk about this. What is the good life? Like? This is the existential philosophical question that there is no answer to but I’m still gonna ask you, God, what is the good life?

Jodi Wellman 5:53
Let’s see what I pull out of a hat today. Well, as most of us do, we take all the information we’ve ever learned in me, we pick and choose what inspires us and we base most of it on research. So it actually is theoretical. Okay, so here is my take on the life worth living, so that we can kind of Skid in broadside in the cloud of smoke as Hunter S. Thompson says, getting into our grave. It is the concept about living wider and deeper. So just to be clear, a lot of this topic about death. We think of it immediately as how much distance to death. We have, you know, like how many years of course I quantify how many Mondays we have left. I’m pretty hell bent on doing that.

Sonya Looney 6:32
How many do you have right now?

Jodi Wellman 6:33
Yeah, 1840? Yes. Yeah, it’s

Sonya Looney 6:37
Monday. So I get to be one of those.

Jodi Wellman 6:40
You can be part of it, by the way. Okay. Have you counted your Mondays?

Sonya Looney 6:44
I saw chart a while ago, a week or two ago? I don’t remember. But it was, it’s probably about the same around how many you?

Jodi Wellman 6:51
Okay, I feel like I’ve had more Mondays than you are, I feel like I look like I’ve had one but but that’s okay, whatever, but we’re all enjoying our Mondays. So back to this concept, not so much about living longer, most people would agree I want it to be quality, not quantity. Okay, good stuff. So then it’s living wider, and deeper, wider the framework is with Vitality. And that is my take on hedonism, you know, they hit on excited well being. So it’s all about the pleasure, traditional happiness, the way most of us think about it, going out and having all the experiences, going to the concerts, going and traveling, whatever it is that makes you feel alive in a vitality induce way. And then living deeper, that dimension has to do with meaning purpose, more of the you demonic dimension of well being right. So like the stuff that’s a good character, more of the doing good, more so than feeling good. And when you mash those two together, that wider and deeper, that conveniently creates quadrants that we can look at. But it also is this sort of It’s a framework from which to assess our lives and go, Wow, we’re feeling maybe a little bit off, I’m feeling a little worried back to your language, like, I might be afraid about death, because I don’t want to get to the end and feel like I didn’t really live it. And it’s a good starting point to say, Okay, well, would it be maybe more along the vitality side? Is it that you would wish you’d with lived wider? And or is it on the deepening side where you wished you maybe had a little more oomph, more meaning so that you had lots of fun, but you came home and you always felt hollow? So that’s a good starting point for diagnosis, and it’s a good it’s a good framework to be able to figure out, well, what do I do if I am feeling a little bit down inside? You know, or a

Sonya Looney 8:28
wee bit dead inside?

Jodi Wellman 8:29
A wee bit?

Sonya Looney 8:33
So we’re, you know, where did this idea of conceptualizing how to live life by thinking about death? Memento Mori, I suppose? Where did that come from? Hmm. It’s

Jodi Wellman 8:42
been around for hundreds of years. And so it’s the old Latin phrase, Memento Mori, meaning remember, we must die. And they’ve been tossing it around humanity for for centuries. And it really has built its way into a lot of the ancient philosophies. So whether it’s Proust, I mentioned Nietzsche, obviously, the Stoic philosophers, it has just sort of stood the test of time about this idea to varying degrees of face facts, honey, reports, like the stoic bottom line about like, whatever is happening you better not like why bother avoiding it? So that has its, it has been around. I mean, back then I cannot help but wonder, you know, when the average lifespan was like 29, or 35, it must have been a little more of a salient point back then. But who knows? You know, it is still up to us, even if we are living to the average age, roughly a 4000. Mondays that’s why I called my company that 4000 is the average lifespan for humans. Even if we live longer, we’re still interested in living again, my words wider and deeper. And again, let’s use memento mori to help spark that.

Sonya Looney 9:53
Yeah, it makes me think of. So I’ve two little kids and I used to be able to work as many hours as I wanted, which was a lot. And now, I limit my hours to when my son is at preschool. So from from nine to three, so I only have six hours a day to get stuff done. Yeah, and yet, I get a lot done in those six hours because I think about how less time I have. So if you think about, I love thinking about this, like, okay, it might sound like a lot like 1800 was at 261. Yeah, the Monday for me 1830. Yeah, yeah. So you know, whenever you start thinking about it in terms of, I can get a lot done, whenever I think about my time is limited. Yeah, then maybe that opens up something,

Jodi Wellman 10:34
your example is so spot on. So if you’ve heard of this concept called Parkinson’s Law, it’s this idea and tell me because I do this all the time you tell me to if you do, where work expands to fit the time we give it. So you know, if you have like a, an assignment, or an essay, or a thing for work, where it’s like, oh, it’s, you know, three weeks from now, most of us are just going to drag. And it’s going to take a mental toll on us. But we’re just going to kind of spread along little bits and pieces, it will not be necessarily an efficient project. But because we just think we’ve got all this time, and many of us will leave it to the last minute and maybe our work product will end up a little bit crappy or not whatever. But if we know, for example, if we have a deadline, whether it is an arbitrary one or not, or we’re just gonna get acting on it. And so in some ways, having that, like, I think we’re doing this Parkinson’s Law with our lives, which in all honesty is, I find it I find that terrifying. You know, this idea that we are tricking ourselves into thinking I have time later, later is elusive. You know, I think like, tomorrow is a premise, not a promise, you know, it’s this idea, like, keep thinking with the luxury of it’s a delusion that I’ll get to fit. I’ll get to do that later. When Oh, no, have you got a deadline? And let’s why I want us to pay attention to that deadline. Because like you said, you get more done in that time, because you know, you have too much choice.

Sonya Looney 11:55
You talk about regrets a lot in your book. And I kind of think about that in this framework to like, well, if I if I do it now. You know, if I don’t do it now then I might regret it. Versus I’ll just do it later. Can you can you talk about regrets? Oh,

Jodi Wellman 12:10
yeah. I love talking about regrets. And I all I often feel like I need to change the language. Because I’ve realized this in workshops that I deliver, I asked people about regrets. And our first instinct is to go to the mistakes we made. You know, like, oh, I regret taking that job in Minneapolis or I regret not saying yes to Ralphie when he asked me to marry him or whatever the thing is. And just to discern, there are two different types of regrets. There’s like, a regret about comission acts we took in wish we hadn’t. And then there are regrets of omission, which are the ones I’m most most concerned about for us. And these are the regrets about things we didn’t do, but maybe wonder about and wished we had. And research is super clear on this, that when we get old and gray and now down the road when we care less about the stupid stuff we did. But we’re often plagued by the wonder about, like, you know, this idea about like possible lives for ourselves best possible selves, like, Who could I have been? If I had applied for that big job, you know, we like we kind of we trap ourselves crazy, fantasizing about maybe the different version of our lines. So those are the paths not taken. So this is where regrets come in. Is for many of us the idea of of getting to the end, the proverbial deathbed regret exercise is like, what would be things that you would kick yourself for? That you always wanted to do? Big or small? That he just you didn’t? And we can analyze why you didn’t do it later. But can I ask you even like if like, sorry about your luck, but tonight tonight, you are Nick looking back on your life and you’re like, Oh, I always wanted to do that. But I never made the time or I didn’t get to it or whatnot. What would be an example.

Sonya Looney 13:56
You’re probably gonna think this is BS, but like, this is how I live my life. So I don’t I can’t think of anything upfront. Okay,

Jodi Wellman 14:03
well, you know what, this is perfect. Because it’s almost like you’re a ringer right now you’re a poster child for memento mori. See people, boys and girls, if you live your life with death at the forefront, like aware of it, you will live a life it apparently is pretty darn regret free, which I love.

Sonya Looney 14:16
That’s how most people get is by thinking about death. Like, because there’s no as a professional athlete. There’s never a good time to have kids. And you can put it off and put it off and put it off. And then maybe I just won’t do it. But then I thought, well, if I’m on my deathbed, am I going to wish I did more bike races and traveled to more countries or am I going to wish that I had kids and had that life journey?

Jodi Wellman 14:37
Okay, this is so this is so exciting to me. Can I ask you How How did you get into this day thinking? Yeah,

Sonya Looney 14:45
that’s a great question. I’ve kind of always I don’t know I like I remember being in my engineering job. Way back when thinking like I can’t I can’t live my life like this. I’m gonna regret it if I don’t go after this mountain biking dream where I’m gonna regret it if I don’t say Yes. And I think about it with my parents, I think about them dying all the time. And you know, well, maybe I only have like 10 Christmases left, if I’m lucky. So I better you know, make the most of that. So, I don’t know.

Jodi Wellman 15:13
Listening to you, first of all, I’m inspired. And not just because we’re kindred spirits in this. But it does make me think about the way we look at regrets, too, because a lot of the times we’re wording it as though we’re into the future, looking back. And that, for many of us is a powerful point of motivation. Like, I don’t love the idea of getting to my deathbed dying, like my mom did full of regrets. That’s my kind of backstory. And, yeah, if I’m being super honest with myself, if I’m on my deathbed, I might not really care so much, you know, so this idea of, or even like in those last years or down the road, and so I recognize that for many of us, we are wired to still find that motivating and for those who are not as inspired by I’ll deal with it, then whatever is going on in my life, then I will say to you understood, but I will still raise you one. And I will say but what about the life you’re living today? Because that, to me is the most concern. It’s like this right now is what we got. And I realize I’m positioning all this is that so we don’t look back later and wish that we had we took action on some of these dreams. But what about just doing your life justice today, we’re even just short term like this month, and saying like, don’t you deserve to still live a life that makes you feel like you showed up and you gave it a go. And maybe some stuff didn’t work out. In fact, many of it won’t. But that’s the hilarity of it all is lead to something else. That’s great. And you can always laugh at it later if it didn’t work out. So it’s being aware of things that we might wished we had done. That’s the list that we have to work with. And whatever motivates us to take action on it, whether it’s worrying about how we’ll feel about it, if we didn’t do it later, or saying, Oh, my gosh, I want to just take action on it now. Because I think my life is valuable. Whatever one floats your boat, I think it’s still worth getting to the life worth living.

Sonya Looney 17:10
I also think it’s important to consider what resources you have, whenever you are approaching these things outside your comfort zone, the risk of going after the thing that you are going to regret you didn’t take because like you said, it’s not always going to work out. And it also might not you might not measure it in the same way like, Oh, that was successful in whatever way. So what resources can people think about?

Jodi Wellman 17:35
Well, that is fascinating. Because I do think that we have to get creative with how we define success and just get really comfortable with that self awareness about what it takes to live again, our versions of like living like we mean it, this was my language about it. And so this, I run into this a lot, I used to work with a lot of individuals and groups around this idea, like, you know, the trappings of success can feel quite Trappy you can get stuck in it, right? Like, some people will stay in jobs because well, the money is there in the allure of maybe status and the identity that comes from having a certain kind of job, but you’re miserable. Okay, so let’s just pick this classic scenario. Well, there’s a, there’s a version of reality for many people where they say, oh, you know, I just would love the idea of, you know, getting this job, and it’s a job that may be lower on a proverbial totem pole. And it might pay less, they will still be able to live a life, but it will be a different life. And so then it just comes down to in many cases, it’s like, what’s it going to take to make your heart sing? What’s it gonna take to make you feel alive? And that’s really the literal language around it. What makes you feel alive? And then sometimes it’s more visceral to say like, what makes you feel dead inside? What makes you feel like you’re energized would take what sucks the energy out of you. And so sometimes it is that real, it’s a recalibration. Actually, Sonya, I think about what it is that we what our goals are in life. Because sometimes it is not the things on the outside, often it’s not necessarily the money, or the location or the things on the outside the optics, it’s about recalibrating and saying, you know, I just can’t deny it. When I have, like, I’m just thinking right now I’m working with a team of sales managers, and like half of them are so miserable, being sales managers, they just loved being salespeople. And it means for many of them, they’re making this decision to say, I’m going to leave the leadership side because I just want to be a free bird responsible for myself and, and I just love the feeling and it’s aligning with their values and that for them. He’s just going to make that with that exhale that feeling of like, I just gonna love my life again. And yeah, I’m not going to be a manager anymore. But you know, what, what’s it worth? Life’s too short to toil and keep hoping it’s going to pan out. For what right? So that might be an example of a recalibration. Yeah,

Sonya Looney 19:54
I liked a couple of things you said there. Number one, you talked about courage and finding Your courage, a quote that my, my husband has said to himself in the mirror, he made this life change one of them. One of those changes coincided with him being with me. But he looked in the mirror and he said, Do I have the courage to live the life that I want to lead?

Jodi Wellman 20:15

Sonya Looney 20:17
Yeah. But you can know that you can, you can know, but then actually doing it is also the hard part. Number two, you’ve talked about self awareness and a lot. And number three, you’ve talked about values. So like being able to take like from from act, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, like take committed action on those values can be really challenging, and it can give your life so much meaning. Yeah,

Jodi Wellman 20:40
well, you’re making me think it can be really challenging to take action on them if you don’t really know what they are. So I think many of us are just walking around, you know, when the winds blowing us and like, it’s friggin windy out there. So we were always on the go, you know, that stuff to do. And there’s no shortage of answering emails and all the things. But when we really stop and go like, well, what, what is like, what are you moving towards? Or what would you love to move towards? Or what would inspire you? Or what would your fantasy version of a take your breath away kind of life like even just go go bold? Who cares? If it’s realistic, right now, many people are a little bit like deer in headlights. And so it’s the same way with values. It’s the same way sometimes with again, that idea about what really lights you up. And so that’s always a good starting point. You know, that, to me is like a great reason to grab a cocktail or you know, a caffeinated beverage or lemon water, whatever it is that does it for you, and sit back and be like, what, like, what I want us to fathom it like, let’s first fathom, let’s just imagine and dream about what could be really cool. And with that, then self awareness back to your husband’s courage point. You know, the more I delve into this topic about regrets in this idea about how we do yearn to live the sort of special lives that make us feel alive. I do think that so much of it does boil down to courage, you know, the character strength of zest, one of the 24 and the via character strengths. One of the hallmarks, believe it or not obssessed is that it does require courage, in order to activate yourself. And like, if you want to kind of live with gusto. Gusto takes a lot, like, like, gusto doesn’t come to you on the couch. I’ve waited for it, it did not show up, much to my chagrin, like, I had to be the one to go, you know, and I do this regularly, because I am a bit of a homebody, like I zest is, it is a big deal for me. But I recognize I have to summon up the courage to do something that’s out of my comfort zone, or to put myself out there and risk looking like in a year, which is very, very, very likely do all the things that just made me feel like but it’s just gonna make me feel alive. And now I’m just so addicted to that idea that I can’t not do it, even though it does still require a lot of courage to do.

Sonya Looney 22:56
And the courage to sit with uncertainty that comes with doing some of these things.

Jodi Wellman 23:02
Hmm, good point.

Sonya Looney 23:06
Yeah, thanks. So let’s talk about getting out of autopilot. Because that’s kind of what you’re talking about the sitting on the couch thing, you have these amazing visuals in your book. Like, this is so cool, because actually, when you mentioned the quadrant, I could immediately picture it. Oh, good.

Jodi Wellman 23:23
That makes me feel good. Excellent. Well, why would write down were you imagining so from the like the habit chapter like autopilot, you’re imagining maybe some of the drawings seen. And now, I remember that exact drawing. So we’ve got, you’re starting off with, you know, just like a little bit of a habit that we think is very helpful. I’m very, very suspicious of habits as you’ll see. Because then they kind of, they seem so helpful in our lives in a very convenient, and they do keep, you know, the train on the tracks. And I can only imagine with kids, like there’s benefit, of course, to having routines, and I understand that. However, the exception to it all is that it creates convenience and comfort and back to maybe the courage point, let’s work on a new thesis here. It’s like a life worth living is often not that convenient. And it is often not superduper comfortable. Because it does require taking some risks. It does require putting yourself out there and applying for the job that you don’t know what’s going to happen or asking the girl out on a date. You know what she’s gonna say, or dyeing your hair blonde and thinking, What the hell was I thinking are all the things we could do that make us feel like I’d give it a go. So

Sonya Looney 24:36
your hair looks awesome, by the way.

Jodi Wellman 24:39
Thank you. It’s always a process of evolution. So this idea then that we get into habits that create routines, and then they kind of they they’re comforting, and then they sniff the life out of us, because we just end up it’s like the familiarity that breeds contempt. One of the famous philosophers I Think it was proved you could fact check me on it. We’ve described habits as being the shroud of familiarity, you know, that does dull the edges of life. And again, that’s like my antennae go way up. Like I do not want the edges around my life dolt. Like, I’m dull enough, you know, again, being home on the couch a lot like I do not need any encouragement for dwelling. And so that’s where we have to interrogate where habits are ruling the roost. Some habits of course, are great, not going to argue with you know, whatever you have to do to keep the kids it’s like to get up and go to school. Yeah, great, like routine that crap out of that. But for the other moments, that’s a chance for us to stop and say, am I this highly functioning zombie? Where I’m just going through the motions day after day after day? Because it’s convenient and easy. Okay, what if every now and then you shook it up? And this is where novelty comes in. And I love novelty so much. Do you know novelty was one of the elements of consideration for self determination theory?

Sonya Looney 25:57

Jodi Wellman 25:58
Do you know how it’s like autonomy competence, and relatedness. Those third one right. Novelty was going to be in there, it was a contender, I guess they just don’t know, somehow didn’t get enough votes, I don’t know. But novelty is so important for us to feel alive. It’s like a basic physiological need. So for most of us, if we’re in habits that we think are helpful, every now and then shake it up, shake up the routine that you do at the gym, you know, or if it’s date night, like, go do something completely different. Go do a picnic and bring a monopoly. I don’t know, that actually sounds like a terrible idea. But whatever, it’s gonna float your boat, or go into your normal routine on a Saturday morning, throw laundry to the wind just for that morning. And like, go out for waffles. And go to that museum that you’ve always wondered about that you’re sure is going to be super boring, but just go check it out. Almost like, I would go and have a mimosa brunch. And then I’d go to the museum. And I’d walk around for four minutes. And I’d be like, Yeah, we’re good. Let’s

Sonya Looney 26:59
go. But I’d be so happy I went up first.

Jodi Wellman 27:02
I mean, that thank you for picking up on the most important point.

Sonya Looney 27:07
I love to shake novelty and like what you’re saying. Habits can be really good. But when they become rigidity, and when they become a mindless thing that makes it hard for you to be flexible, then you lose the ability to have novelty in your life.

Jodi Wellman 27:22
Oh, I love that you saying that the word mindlessness is I think that’s the crux of this. It’s like we can slip people will say well hang on a sec, because I have a routine they’ll say where I do this thing where like, for many people, it’s a it’s a ritual where they will make their coffee in the morning. You know, where it’s a ritual like you could tell me examples maybe about like before a race thing you do. And that to me is very different than a routine or a habit that where we just glaze over. Because I became a robot. And it was, I don’t want you to be proud of me because I resisted using my robot voice their consent? No, no,

Sonya Looney 27:58
I want to I’m not proud. I want to hear the robot voice. You got to take a risk. Jodi?

Jodi Wellman 28:03
Maybe he’ll come up later. No, I think I will not. But anyway. So we we become robots. And we just like glaze over. Whereas there’s a very big difference when something feels like a very special moment. To us that feels like a really precious part of our day. Like maybe it’s the coffee making ritual, like selecting the perfect mug and smelling and doing a lot more. Do you have a ritual that you do before races or something that feels like it’s actually a ritual and not like a mind numbing habit?

Sonya Looney 28:36
I you know, this is really funny. I don’t really have any rituals. Like I’m a weirdo, I threw the racing around the world that I’ve done. It used to be that you could you could have your like set breakfast and your set routine. And then some of the stage races, like you’re in some developing country. And like all that how to get thrown out to I guess I would say if I had any ritual, it would just be like talking to people on the start line and trying to create, like a depressurize zone where we’re all like you’re having a fun adventure together instead of we’re here to kill each other, which can be both at the same time. Whoo.

Jodi Wellman 29:10
I like that. We can be very pleasant killers. Yeah, yeah. Well, I like you seem so adaptable, because like he said, If you were really attached to a routine, that would throw you for a loop, if all of a sudden you’re in a totally different country, and it’s like, I don’t have my Nespresso that would maybe affect your performance. So I like how you you’ve just kind of you go with the flow and in a good way. The key though, is might is to be mindful, right? So whether it’s mindful, and I’m not suggesting we need to be mindful every minute of every day. It’s just there’ll be so exhausting. Sometimes we need to just click into a little bit of healthy routine, autopilot, like, sometimes getting ready in the morning. We don’t need to be super mindful of all that sometimes, but because we’re saving our mental capacity and functioning for the meeting that we’re really going to need to crush at 9am or something That’s like, I mean, great. But again, we’re looking at our lives as a whole, like, look at your whole day, or maybe more effectively, like, look at your whole week. And I have this like, this idea, you know, when you watch a fast motion camera, like I don’t know why I always loved the ones where like, they load a cruise ship or something. And it’s like, they do it on speed camera, and you can see all that’s going on. If you have that camera on your life. And it kind of followed you day to day, would it be really bizarrely the same kind of day after day?

Sonya Looney 30:31
And I think I think it will be an Yeah, I didn’t give you a good example to work with. But I’ll give you an example to work with is that I do have a routine every single morning that I do with my kids, like because they thrive when they know what’s coming next. So if you did have that camera, it would be the same exact thing every single day. And I do have in flexibility, like in my my Google Calendar, like if something gets thrown off, and I get all bent out of shape, like, oh, something’s running late now, or I don’t have time for this. So like, I definitely fall into that it just around the bike racing, I’ve managed to let that go. But in other places in my life, I haven’t let that go.

Jodi Wellman 31:06
Yeah, yeah, I do the same thing. You know, I, I always need to be the first to admit, like, just cuz I wrote a book on this stuff doesn’t mean that I’ve nailed it. Like, I read it for me too, because I recognize the patterns of it’s comforting. And I think just for the record, anytime you get into the world of being a parent, oh, man, I think a lot of the rules are out the window, where you kind of have to, you have to be a little bit at the mercy of that routine for a while just to help keep things a little more sane control that chaos. And that might be all the more reason why for those of us so I recognized you know, I work with a lot of people in healthcare, and their jobs have to be so routinized. And it’s like, kind of to keep their patients alive. You know, like if they didn’t have a ritual, like a thing that they follow up with their charts and their things, then bad things might happen. And I’m not trying to say like, spice up your rounds. Like that’s not what I’m after. Now you’re giving me ideas, but it so keep that going right? Like keep the parenting thing going in a way that keeps things easy. Like we literally with ease, I don’t think it’s easy, but with more ease than not. And then that’s just where the onus is on us to identify other pockets of life where we can infuse a little more novelty where that is possible. And sometimes that is like, hey, if I got like a free 10 minutes between meetings, what if I just sat outside? And did not check my email? Or what if I read a different book if I’m going to seek in four minutes of reading a book before I fall asleep in bed at night? What if I just change the genre of book and be like, murder mystery people read these, I could try this and like shake.

Sonya Looney 32:39
My god woman, that’s definitely the book.

Jodi Wellman 32:43
Well, thank you for that very appropriate shadow.

Sonya Looney 32:45
Now I love that you discern the difference between the times where you need a routine and times where the things that you habitually do turn into a rut to use your word. And in your book, you talked about the difference between a rut and a grave is just the dimensions. So like maybe Netflix every night, you know, is your right and maybe doing your rounds at the hospital, you know, that needs to have the same thing every time needs to be your your ritual. Uh

Jodi Wellman 33:10
huh. Oh, I like that. Yeah. And so I read this phrase I use like living a squander free life. And I remember, in one particular conversation, I was appropriately challenged, because there was some confusion. someone’s like, Well, wait a sec. Isn’t there a time and a place for squandering? And I was just like, oh, yeah, let’s I think we just need to make some definitions. Because this individual was thinking squandering meant, like, some Saturdays, I just want to recline and I’ve got all my whole movie list set up. And it’s like, they love like, they took delight in slavery. And I was like, I see you so deeply in your soul, I understand you because I also have those unplugged moments where I really just need to just, you know, go on a binge Netflix, hello. And I was like, Oh, that to me does not sound like squandering, that, to me sounds like your version, and mind sometimes of like, self care, or actually, like, that’s the way I would define. That’s kind of a vitality filled afternoon, if you want to spend your time that way. The difference, of course, is like, and I know this, because this is the this is the crime that I committed against myself regularly is like evening TV. I will watch TV every night happily. But I do get that it’s that sense. You know, it’s like that’s that little knocking from within. And sometimes it’s just a little, little, and sometimes it then other times, it ends up being like someone’s trying to bang down the door inside. And I just think that that’s life trying to get lived, you know, from the inside out. And it’s just saying to me, like, sweetie, you need to just get out more. I’m like, Oh, God, how much longer can I ignore you? And I try that and then and then I enjoy another movie or two for a couple nights. And then I’m like, No, you know what, you’re right. And then I go out for cocktail at this cool bar and I feel like I’m living again. And then I come back home and I love you know, so I think we have to listen For the difference between full on squander and also like savoring, savoring versus contouring,

Sonya Looney 35:07
how do you know what to listen to? Because I think that you can have competing voices in your head saying, Well, no, I need this rest. I need this downtime. And hey, I am getting novelty. Because I’m watching the next episode, I’m dying to know what the what’s the what’s the next episode of the show? Versus like, well, maybe I’m just forcing myself to go do this thing, because I quote should?

Jodi Wellman 35:27
Huh, oh, my gosh, this. I love your question, because it also echoes most of our dialogue going on in our heads, we mind the least. So I think that the answer to that is, we have to notice patterns with ourselves in order to come up with like our operating manual, dare I say. And so we’re over time we get into this rhythm in a way and I’m not suggesting a routine rhythm that is now lacking in all novelty. But I think there’s this sort of dose approach. And it’s this idea about I call it like, it’s the Fit formula. Years ago, I used to work in the fitness, business and fit the acronym stands for frequency, intensity, time and type. And each one of us has our own thresholds for like, well, how often do you need to let’s just use vitality and meaning as are? How often do you need to be up and out and doing things maybe socially or engaged in the community? Or trying a new hobby or something, you know, not basically, not Netflix? Frequency intensity? Like, does it need to be, like a two week long cooking tour through Tuscany? Or does it need to be like, actually, no, I just downloaded a new recipe, and I wouldn’t got the ingredients. And I’m really proud of myself that I made this Tuscan chicken, okay. That would make you know, more intense to less intense time, like, does it need to be over a long dragged out time like along? Whatever trip? Could it be just be a little short stint, like walking around the block with a dog and taking a new route in through the alleys or something? And in the type community? What kinds of things because you might realize I just love it when I’m social. And other people would say, not so much for me, I just love it. When I’m learning something new. Give me an online course. And I come alive, right? We just need to know ourselves and go, Okay. I will debate that inner voice that says, Watch the next show. Because I’ll be like, Yeah, that does sound soothing to me. But I really need soothing or if I go back to my calendar. I know for me, my operating manual is that I’m probably at my best if I’m like up and out doing something social and or interesting in the you know, in town once a week for sure. And have I done that for now? Actually, I’ve missed it for two weeks. So I’m just being lazy bones right now. And what if I did just kind of nudge myself and go? And I just challenge has, how often do you regret doing the thing after you’ve done it? You know, most people, even us introverts still feel good that we went and did the thing, whatever that is. And so I think that oftentimes, we just need to know, if you’re feeling guilty, but you’ve already been out seven times in the last month. Maybe you’re like No, actually, you know what I’ve reached, I’ve checked the box. So I would go with that frequency, intensity, time and type. I

Sonya Looney 38:09
love that. I love that. I love a good acronym. So it sounds like curiosity is such a big part of this because we’re talking about novelty. But to overcome that barrier to actually getting out the door to overcome that activation energy. Like asking what else is what else is here? And then thinking about your life, in the big picture can help you make these decisions. Yeah.

Jodi Wellman 38:34
Yeah, I am very interested in curiosity, because it’s just one of the little ingredients in the stew. That I think is so important. Is there a dog behind you going on? No, I

Sonya Looney 38:46
was just looking because I just read this book. You probably already read it, but it’s called it’s curiosity by Todd Cashton. Like he’s written a lot about purpose, but yeah, curiosity by Todd cash and that that was a great book. So I was just gonna looking for Okay,

Jodi Wellman 38:59
I got a curious guy. I thought you were looking at an animal. I was

Sonya Looney 39:04
wrong right now.

Jodi Wellman 39:09
Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah, Curiosity is this really important ingredient? I guess that I think some of us don’t indulge it. Some of us are more curious than others. Obviously, it’s a trait that some possess more so but some people are just not tuned in and honoring that little tiny question mark that goes on in the head. So for some people, it’s a very silent little like, Oh, I wonder if you know, my dad will ask my dad is in his 80s in Toronto, and he asked me these questions. Sometimes he’s like, is Burt Reynolds still alive? And I’m like quite data you could find you could Google it. And so of course, he doesn’t often take the next step. So he might have a question. But indulges might get Michael, I guess my recommendation is anytime you start to have a question about something we live in an era where the answers are ridiculously assessable. And so that’s just one way to build a muscle about like starting to answer some questions wander and start to take note about things like activities that might make that you’ve been interested in. And for most of us, we actually need a long running list, because it might be kind of curious about archery. Write it down. Okay, oh, I’ve always kind of wondered about, I saw sign of the library, they were looking for volunteers to read to kids from some different languages, maybe write it down, to come up with a list of things you’re curious to maybe explore more about later, not just to learn about but to do or people like, a lot of people will say, Oh, I’m socially awkward. Okay. Join the club. What about like, the next time I see Sonya, I want to ask her the following questions, because I just I always get weird in the moment. And I’m like, Well, tell me more about whatever. So you can, it’s almost like a curiosity tracker, where you’re able to just capture some of the questions that you have an interest that you might want to bring more to life, that gives us a fighting chance. I just think that in some in life, we just need to give ourselves a frickin leg up. Because it’s hard and busy. So I don’t know, that’s me. He’s like a cheat sheet. For curiosity.

Sonya Looney 41:07
I feel like your entire book has really great cheat sheets among the nerd notes in there, using your word. But yeah, I want to go back to the beginning. Because we were talking about living a wee bit dead inside versus living like we mean it. So we’ve kind of come full circle. Can you talk about what it means? The living a wee bit dead inside that juxtaposition against living? Like we mean it?

Jodi Wellman 41:34
Oh, yeah. Well, specifically, in the book, I, there’s a chart, like, it’s actually hard to put a chart in the book, apparently, but they did it. And it has, if I’m gonna guess like eight different scenarios of compare and contrast about what it means to be a wee bit dead inside, which is the way most of us feel at different parts of our lives versus the version I think that we’re all longing to live, which is again with liveness. And one of the ones that’s just sticking up to me right now, maybe it’s thematic, is this idea about the difference between playing to win, which isn’t a good column, right? That’s like, who likes getting live like we’re giving it a go, versus playing not to lose. And I remember those words, when I first heard them, the respec really resonated with me, because, of course, we’ve heard playing small, and you know, I understand that very well to intimately. But this idea about playing not to lose is the protective way to live, that I think many of us are doing it is another version of living under a little bit of a shell, it’s safe. So we’re staying in the same job. We are curious about what it could be like if we work for that other company. But we’re a little bit scared to rock the boat. And that is a we that dead inside. We just can’t deny it right? It’s that we might be settling and tolerating, to very dangerous words. Sometimes we have to settle and tolerate for a little while for circumstances in our lives. I totally get it. But we all know when it’s it’s been a while. And so playing not to lose is all about the totally safe play. That is very narrow in terms of the way we might live. Versus I’m going to, I’m going to put myself out there, I’m going to apply for that thing. Or I’m going to apply for that grad school. And will I feel feelings if I don’t get hired or I don’t get accepted? Or I don’t get the thing? Yeah. Yeah. And I think many of us would also agree that the experience of having those feelings over time mellows into something that is far better, because that usually, I don’t know, maybe it’s like a fine wine. it ferments into something that’s good into like pride of like, I tried. Like the feeling of like, you know, I did not make that crack volleyball team. But I just so excited, like I auditioned or I tried and and I’m glad I did that, rather than the other feeling which is not trying it at all, just to just to preserve our feelings. And then again, maybe now and or later, the regret period looking back and going, Wow, I played small like I didn’t even give myself a chance. And that I think has an extremely different flavor. And most of us want the really fantastic you know, Pink Starburst flavor of claimed to win. So that’s one example of we bidet inside versus astonishingly alive.

Sonya Looney 44:40
That the Pink Starburst is the best flavor by the way.

Jodi Wellman 44:44
Thank you. I knew you had good taste. Yes.

Sonya Looney 44:49
Yeah, whenever I think about this playing not to lose versus playing to win. I think about this a lot in sport, especially in a race context, because the risks that you take are different in whatever you’re playing not to lose your you’re tight, you’re not really breathing all the way, you’re not really looking at what’s possible, it really changes the way that you show up. And it requires, it requires that flexibility to accept those difficult emotions if it doesn’t work out. And I think this goes back to what you said at the very beginning with living with depth, this eudaimonic part of, you know, sometimes you aren’t going to have happy feelings whenever you’re pushing. And when you’re seeing what’s possible in life. But the very act of seeing what’s possible in life is the thing that makes it worth living. Oh,

Jodi Wellman 45:36
wow, I just got shivers from that. That sounds so great. I love that.

Sonya Looney 45:39
Yeah. And I love how you talked about the balancing it out with having vitality and with doing the things that that also feel good to nurture that. Because if you’re always uncomfortable, and you’re always pushing yourself too hard, because you want to uncover every rock, you can burn yourself out, or you can just get exhausted.

Jodi Wellman 46:01
Yeah, excellent point. Yeah. And I and you’re making me think about my research and the people that I self identify, you know, with will through this survey I do. Interestingly, the number one category is meaningfully bored, right, which is where people feel like they have enough meaning in their life to be, you know, above the average for them, like on the plus side, but not not enough vitality. So they are they have that sense. Like I just need a little more fun around here if you need more, more of that vitality. But the people that are maxing it out that Vitaliy empty is the is the category where people feel like, oh, yeah, I got vitality here. Like I’m a vitality king or queen, but I feel empty, because I don’t have a lot of that depth of meaning or purpose. That’s actually a pretty small category that didn’t get, I don’t know, you could fact check me on it. It’s like 15% Max. And so it’s, um, versus about 40% of people who feel meaningfully bored, needing just more fun, you know. And that was not a COVID fact. I mean, COVID Did no one any favors to feel vitally alive. But I shouldn’t say that some people really thrive to, you know, with puzzles and such inside. But most people ended up feeling like their lives were narrower afterwards. But we found that we were living like that before COVID. And then also, now that it’s kind of in the dust. So for the most part, we just need a little bit of help with a little more of the vitality. So

Sonya Looney 47:28
interesting. Yeah, you know, you always hear about, it’s so important to have meaning and purpose in life, and it is, but you need to have vitality as well. And I think a lot of times, people have that meaning and purpose, but they’re too tired, or they’re too overwhelmed. Because of that, like they might have a passion that they’re working towards, that brings great meaning and, and or purpose in their life. But now they don’t have any energy left to have fun. Ah,

Jodi Wellman 47:53
yes, I totally get you, you’re making me think about the stories and part of the research about how there can be just trade offs, like meaning is such a rich, valuable asset in life. And it might mean that we’re agreeing, for example, if you have kids, or if you’re caregiving, that it’s going to be dripping with meaning, maybe later upon reflection, we’re sort of in in the moment, but the rain a lot of fun. Every day, you know, versus you know, maybe if the kids are out of the house or maybe post caregiving existence, etc, there can be more room for some of that energy. And I guess so I want to I want to acknowledge that first. And I also want to put a little tiny plugin for managing our expectations about what it’s going to take for fun to be had. Because I think in our all or nothing, you know, way of thinking. We often think we’ve got to do the whole eight week sketching class or it’s got to involve, you know, a trip to Europe or something that feels big either because of like, it’s got to be a big time commitment, or even money or when let’s just not forget that your lives are just little tiny blocks of five minutes attached together. That makes up an hour that makes up a day then the knees are our lives. And so sometimes it’s that simple building in have a special break. Like I keep thinking of a client I used to work with who she made like it was like a 3pm popcorn break for herself. This goes back to being kind of more of a ritual than like a mind glazed habit. Okay, she would she had a crazy job though we all she’d like to take a break at three. And that was like her like the sun shone even if it was like a cloudy day because she would just be so excited to make her popcorn. I think if I’m getting my story straight, she would also read a little bit from a book while she was waiting for like the three and a half minutes for the popcorn to pop in the microwave. You know And like for her, that was just a really joyful part of her day. And in totality, is it seven minutes? Yeah. And that can be something where even if she had a life where she was in a, you know, maybe she was going home to seven kids, and also an elderly parents with memory care issues, and life is just super meaningful, but also not a lot of fun. That seven minutes for her can be. I’m not pretending it makes up for everything in her life. But I’m just suggesting that you can eke out a few seven minutes a joy little bits at a time. And that can be just some of those little bits that delivers a jolt of joy that otherwise we would just miss.

Sonya Looney 50:38
Yeah, that goes right back to that savoring that you were talking about earlier. Yeah, just noticing. Yeah. I can’t believe we’re already out of time. But where can people find your book and the audiobook which you read, which I I’ve already read the hardcopy, I can’t wait to listen to it now. Because I just love listening to you.

Jodi Wellman 51:05
Well, you are lovely. I don’t know if my husband would say that. Thank you. So I thanks for asking also, where to find me. I’m at 4000 And the book is you only die once and that, you know, is very easy to find on the website, like the first page called books. And yeah, it’s just been an honor honor to get to chat with you about this important topic. Well,

Sonya Looney 51:29
thanks. And congratulations. I know it’s such a big deal. And it’s gonna be so much fun for all of these people to have this amazing information to change their lives. Oh, you’re wonderful. Thank you boo.

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